Official Cadillac ELR thread - a luxury version of the Volt

[GRA]

The ELR's performance is improved when in gasoline range-extending mode. I don't believe any claims of improved performance in EV mode have been made by GM. This looks to me like a smoke and mirrors software tweak to get the 0-60 out of the "embarrassing" column in the car magazines.

Everything under the hood has been confirmed to be modified Gen 1 running gear, including the old battery pack. EV range and gasoline fuel economy actually go down a bit from the 2014 ELR, when equipped with the sport package.

anyone buying one of these cars won't care if the 0-60 is with the gas engine; after all, it's not as if practicality or cost savings is a major marketing factor for these cars.

 

[LKK]

I don't know, if all I had to work with is the Gen 1 drive train I would try to figure out a way to combine the power of the ICE and the traction motor for max performance. You might be able to make a software change to the mode where the ICE is coupled to the generator and the generator is coupled to the planetary gear set. I think what they do with the regular Volt is turn the gen to make electricity for the traction motor. Any extra power not required by the gen is transmitted directly to the wheel via the PGS.

By changing the software the gen could be turned off and allowed to free wheel. In this case power from the ICE goes straight to the wheels. Next, I would change the software to allow the traction draw full power from the battery. By doing these two changes you could combine the full power of the ICE with the full power of the traction motor, around 250 hp, enough to drop the 0-60 time significantly.

There's a hitch to this arrangement however. It's not practical, great for advertising but if you did this the battery would be depleted quickly. Since you can only do this when the ICE is on, this implies the battery is already at minimum SOC, running a 0-60 sprint would drop the SOC to a level that is unhealthy. I guess you could create a special mode that would allow you to this if the battery has a reasonable SOC, but it seems to be a feature of little real use.

 

[GRA]

Some educated guesses via ABG:

How Cadillac improved power output in 2016 ELR by 25 percent

http://www.autoblog.com/2015/06/01/how-cadillac-improved-power-output-2016-elr-25-percent/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[JeffN]

The ELR's performance is improved when in gasoline range-extending mode. I don't believe any claims of improved performance in EV mode have been made by GM. This looks to me like a smoke and mirrors software tweak to get the 0-60 out of the "embarrassing" column in the car magazines.

Everything under the hood has been confirmed to be modified Gen 1 running gear, including the old battery pack. EV range and gasoline fuel economy actually go down a bit from the 2014 ELR, when equipped with the sport package.

The specifications listed at the bottom of this media release state that EV mode is now capable of 160 kW which is 213 HP. Peak torque is now 506 Nm which is 373 lb-ft. versus 400 Nm or 295 lb-ft. in the older ELR.

http://media.gm.com/media/us/en/cadillac/news.detail.html/content/Pages/news/us/en/2015/apr/0415-elr.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

From the GM specs:

Motors (two):
160 kW in tour (EV) mode; 174 kW Sport mode max drive power; 55 kW generating power

Sport mode in the 2016 ELR was changed to no longer act like an EREV so if you really "floor it" it will fire up the gas engine to drive the generator to feed in a little extra power to the big electric motor for a total of up to 174 kW.

I know people don't want to believe that the 17.1 kWh battery pack (shared with the 2014 ELR and 2014-2015 Volt) can deliver 160 kW but the underlying LG Chem cells are likely rated for at least 10C output which would be 171 kW, as far as I can tell. Previously, GM was being more conservative and also probably saving some money on cabling, the power inverter, and the motor by only supporting 111-120 kW of EV mode power.

 

[JeffN]

Some educated guesses via ABG:

How Cadillac improved power output in 2016 ELR by 25 percent

http://www.autoblog.com/2015/06/01/how-cadillac-improved-power-output-2016-elr-25-percent/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

That article and a copycat article that quotes it at TransportEvolved are confused about how the parallel power-split mode works in the Volt and ELR. Technically, the design used by GM is called "output split" and it is architecturally incapable of using fully additive output from the gas engine and the big motor at the same time. Instead, the Volt and ELR switch to series mode for fast acceleration or climbing steep roads.

 

[mtndrew1]

The specifications listed at the bottom of this media release state that EV mode is now capable of 160 kW which is 213 HP. Peak torque is now 506 Nm which is 373 lb-ft. versus 400 Nm or 295 lb-ft. in the older ELR.

http://media.gm.com/media/us/en/cadillac/news.detail.html/content/Pages/news/us/en/2015/apr/0415-elr.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

From the GM specs:

Motors (two):
160 kW in tour (EV) mode; 174 kW Sport mode max drive power; 55 kW generating power

Thank you for the correction.

213 bhp pushing a 4,050lb automobile in EV mode will still likely keep it slower than a base Honda Accord.

An improvement, to be sure, but the car is still a relative slug with a very steep sticker price. If you want to accelerate in a 2016 ELR almost as quickly as a Camry V6 you can fire up the obnoxious 1.4L gas engine and let it scream its guts out.

I still see no value proposition in the ELR at a $66,000 MSRP unless one simply cannot live without the car's beauty. This is still, at best, a $50,000 car. I suspect one calendar year from now the absurdness of the 2016 ELR's value proposition will be just as obvious as the 2014's is today.

 

[JeffN]

The specifications listed at the bottom of this media release state that EV mode is now capable of 160 kW which is 213 HP. Peak torque is now 506 Nm which is 373 lb-ft. versus 400 Nm or 295 lb-ft. in the older ELR.

http://media.gm.com/media/us/en/cadillac/news.detail.html/content/Pages/news/us/en/2015/apr/0415-elr.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

From the GM specs:

Motors (two):
160 kW in tour (EV) mode; 174 kW Sport mode max drive power; 55 kW generating power

Thank you for the correction.

213 bhp pushing a 4,050lb automobile in EV mode will still likely keep it slower than a base Honda Accord.

An improvement, to be sure, but the car is still a relative slug with a very steep sticker price. If you want to accelerate in a 2016 ELR almost as quickly as a Camry V6 you can fire up the obnoxious 1.4L gas engine and let it scream its guts out.

The base Honda Accord weighs 3,200 pounds and its engine does 185 HP @ 6,400 rpm with 181 lb-ft. @ 3,900 rpm. That's about 17.3 pounds per HP. The ELR in EV mode is 18.8 pounds per HP in EV but, of course, that power is silent and is developed quickly at low vehicle speed. In Sport mode it does a nearly identical 17.4 pounds per HP as the Accord but, again, much of that is from the battery and comes on early.

I wouldn't personally buy an ELR either but it looks to have a clear overall edge on its competitors in that price and luxury range.

 

[mtndrew1]

Got it. Still slower than a Honda Accord which is 1/3 the cost.

The ELR's competitors are the Audi A5, the BMW 435i, and Mercedes-Benz C-Coupe, all of which perform better, cost dramatically less, and have much higher brand cachet.

Just like the 2014 ELR, the only competitive benefits of the 2016 ELR are the styling and partial electric drive. If one is drawn to the former to the degree that it's worth an extra $15,000 over the competition then more power to them. If one is drawn primarily to the latter, the Gen1 Voltec system, 15A charger, and sluggish EV acceleration are in my opinion unlikely to be a match for the the discerning EV shopper.

Fortunately for Cadillac, if they begin to accept that they're a damaged challenge brand and don't price it to the moon, the CT6 PHEV could remedy all of this and actually compete in the marketplace.

 

[GRA]

Via Automobile magazine, some interesting comments:

Catching Up With: Uwe Ellinghaus, Cadillac Chief Marketing Officer
December 17, 2015

http://www.automobilemag.com/features/magazine/1603-catching-up-with-uwe-ellinghaus-cadillac-chief-marketing-officer/

Re the ElR and related issues:

AM: When you first came on board, you said that a car like the ELR was a priority for you. Is it still that way given where it's at saleswise? And also, how important do you feel hybrid and alternative powertrain technology and Super Cruise and things like that ... getting that kind of stuff across your lineup is important?

Ellinghaus: Put it this way: The ELR's a big disappointment; there's no denying, yet still I want it, and want it because it is a statement how progressive how Cadillac is and that we can tackle electromobility in the brand. But, it was also great learning exercise for all of us because maybe we asked too much. We tried to create a car that was the niche in the niche in the niche and that was where the volume ended.

So a coupe two-seat is already limited, right? Then, we spec'd it to the maximum degree and said we don't want a rolling declaration of sacrifices, and I approved that as well and said, no, we don't. We didn't want to position it as a green car, right? So I like the luxury features, but it priced it into a level where people started comparing it to, dare I say it, the Tesla. And then they said it has the same price. Nonsense, because our car comes fully equipped and the Tesla is completely naked. But the Tesla is a four-door, right?

And that's why my outtake is; we no longer go down this road that we have a certain car that has the electric credentials, the green credentials. Going forward, we’ll simply add plug-in hybrid-electric modes into almost all our cars. So the CT6, one year after it's launched, will get a plug-in version, and future cars and SUVs will as well. I think this is the way forward for the entire industry. It will no longer be possible to emulate Tesla's success. Tesla only is so successful because they have the belief in the electric engine being the sole engine on board. We were concerned in this industry about ranges, and the anxiety of getting stuck led us to add a combustion engine, and that caused the counter-reaction by some folks saying, "No, I am serious, I wanted a sole electric." And I think that's a minority. The majority, particularly not in urban areas, will need longer ranges, and for them, a plug-in hybrid is probably the best version.

But if all manufacturers offer it because the CAFE legislation, then why invest in this technology? It's no longer a differentiating aspect to have. I think I said it this morning before Andrew [Smith] heard it, it will become the next all-wheel drive. Some will want it, and take the box and the price list, and others not. And that's why I think it becomes an entry ticket into luxury automobiles rather than a differentiating aspect.

AM: Speaking of future propulsion, there’s a lot of talk about electric versus hydrogen fuel cells.

Ellinghaus: Hydrogen is infrastructure. I have some experiences there. I worked for BMW for 15 years. I say one thing: If you look at the environmental balance of electromobility as it is now, it makes no sense whatsoever. Nobody wants to hear it. But as long as the majority of the energy is generated from fossil fuels ... and that's about 80 percent right? U.S. ... the environmental balance is negative. Nobody wants to hear it because for whatever reason, electric power was always clean, and nobody cared how it got into it, right? It's still the case. So the Tesla, and electromobility per se, are not by definition good for the environment, on the contrary. I do believe that very long-term hydrogen is really the way ... but I also realize that this industry needs to change its thinking in boxes, and in, let's say, their own way forward because hydrogen failed. Even in Germany, where the government for a while was very excited about it, two leading manufacturers could simply not agree on the approach. And we see this with the fuel cell which requires hydrogen in a gaseous form, and we, at BMW at that time, insisted no, we wanted a regular combustion engine, and that means liquid. And then, the politicians had the perfect argument to say, "If you cannot even agree on a standard, we will not build infrastructure." And I cannot even blame them.

The recent book "Car Wars: The Rise, the Fall, and the Resurgence of the Electric Car" ( http://www.amazon.com/Car-Wars-Rise-Resurgence-Electric/dp/1250048702 ) describes the disagreement between the German manufacturers in more detail. Now that everyone's agreed to use gaseous H2/fuel cells, the German Govt's been willing to subsidize infrastructure (and is doing so).

 

[redLEAF]

No real surprise here ... (production ended this past February, they only sold 2,334 in '14 and '15); I'm sure you can get a very good deal on whatever they have left on the dealer lots.

I kind of liked these but simply waaay too much of a premium over the much more useful Volt Gen 1 from which it had a 'slight' variation of the power train from. Sometimes this can work better (like the Lexus CT200h using the Prius power train) but you can't simply double the price with a bit more flair and nicer materials, etc.

http://autoweek.com/article/car-news/cadillac-elr-production-quietly-ended-months-ago#ixzz49CtQoKU3

 

[LTLFTcomposite]

Whoever it was at GM that thought up that car had to be smoking crack. The only other possible explanation is there were one or more executives on competitors payrolls who opted for this rolling crock of stupidity rather than putting a Voltec powertrain in a compact crossover to create a vehicle that would have been wildly successful.