Nissan says I can't buy a new battery pack even if I want to

[DaveEV]

Let's say you are willing to shell out $10k for a battery pack.

Right now you can buy a LEAF for about $25k after taxes and rebates. As long as you can sell your LEAF for more than $15k you come out ahead.

So just buy a new LEAF and sell yours to someone who doesn't need the full range. In Seattle, the remaining capacity should last quite a while.

As for the Model S suggestion: The 40/60kWh versions won't be available until next year - by then Smyrna should be humming along anyway and presumably one will be able to buy an entire pack if they need one.

The only other EV on the market right now which should make your commute with charging on both ends for years to come is the RAV4-EV. People are reporting 100 miles as easy so even with 30% degradation you should be able to make 65 miles in it. Only drawback there is the price and the higher energy use due to it's size.

There are a few other options:

1. The Enginer add-on pack. Problem is that at least the Prius kits have had reliability issues.
2. Short QC each way as needed. 5 min QC should be plenty as long as you do it below 50% SOC. But of course that takes time to stop and charge a bit 2 times a day.
3. Drop your speed 5 mph. Tough to do as you may already be going the minimum speed for the road.

 

[smkettner]

Buy a new LEAF, swap the packs and sell the new leaf at $3,000 discount with the 50,000 mile battery :shock:

 

[Stoaty]

Buy a new LEAF, swap the packs and sell the new leaf at $3,000 discount with the 50,000 mile battery :shock:

Would you recommend the same level of disclosure as Nissan gives purchasers of a new Leaf?

 

[Reddy]

Crazy as it seems, maybe you could "trade" (for a price) with an existing Leaf owner in the Seattle area who doesn't need the full range. I know I don't need the range in my small town and could settle for even a "real" 30 mile range. There may be others like me (although Seattle is quite a bit bigger and driving distances are much farther).

Reddy

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

Crazy as it seems, maybe you could "trade" (for a price) with an existing Leaf owner in the Seattle area who doesn't need the full range. I know I don't need the range in my small town and could settle for even a "real" 30 mile range. There may be others like me (although Seattle is quite a bit bigger and driving distances are much farther).

Reddy

not likely to find much traction there. I am pretty familiar with LEAF owners in Seattle and the big draw of Seattle is the places "around it" to go. the launch of the DCFCs are very well received but are lacking in Seattle proper and its nearby surrounding suburbs especially to the South

 

[gaswalla]

Your wife is smart.

You ought to unload that LEAF asap. You can then look at a Prius or a Tesla depending on finances and personal interests.

The LEAF battery appears to have about a 50k mile usable lifespan depending on ambient temperatures - some diehards will argue - but, that's the reality for most folks.

The reality is TaylorSFGuy has put 55k on his LEAF and (IIRC) by his reports, still has between 80% and 90% of his original capacity. And he has probably saved close to $4,000 in fuel costs, over a prius, since he began driving his LEAF.

His problem is he needs more than the ~70%-80% of "new" capacity he probably will have in another year, as he approaches 100k miles. So if I were in his position, I would probably insist on a price from Nissan, which as others have mentioned, should be their legal obligation.

As another option, what is happening to the batteries salvaged from near-new LEAFs totaled in accidents?

Seems to me you should be able to pick up one of those for a reasonable price, if the labor and other parts(?) required for the swap don't prove too costly.

His original battery, with whatever capacity it has when he does the swap, may still have significant resale value.

The"$4000" in savings in gas will barely pay for the new/refurbished battery. So after it's all said and done, at best, there's no cost savings vs a Prius (and this is for a car that lives in an ideal climate - not SoCal/TX/AZ). So, then it comes down to other factors: environmental concerns, the joy of driving the LEAF vs a Prius...I'd say the LEAF drive is pretty enjoyable, but all you guys telling him to do that long commute even slower are really taking this factor away....

 

[surfingslovak]

I would look into trading the vehicle in for a 2012. Some owners with confirmed 10% range loss have done that, I know them personally. They were able to get a good deal on a 2-year lease and are hopeful that the new Leaf will work for them until another alternative emerges.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

couple things to consider; he is just now hitting LBW as he pulls into his driveway which means he still has some life left. so I have to say he will be closer to 70,000 miles before he is really pushing it in winter. For Summer, he's got a ways to go. now obviously you dont want to drive a car that can only be driven in Summer (although i know a lot of people who do do that but with other kinds of cars) so his concern about investigating the issues early is warranted. It is really too bad that Nissan is not more understanding of his situation but in this case, I think he needs to skip up the ladder to bend the ear of the people who can do something. after all, this is not a cry of "foul" its simply "hey, great product! got a lot of use out of it and need another battery"

but it is still getting trickle down information to the front line people. In matters of this type; Nissan should provide a conduit to the customer for more in depth information instead of "sorry sir, what you are ask for is not in the catalog"

as far as trading goes? I could not see myself trading now when the REAL LEAF I want maybe coming out in 2014. there is already rumors running around about battery upgrades coming mid to late 2013...

 

[surfingslovak]

as far as trading goes? I could not see myself trading now when the REAL LEAF I want maybe coming out in 2014. there is already rumors running around about battery upgrades coming mid to late 2013...

Yes, of course, all great points. Everyone's personal situation is a bit different though. The example I mentioned above worked well for the owners. They did their homework, and the dealer was eager to trade given their large inventory of unsold 2012s.

 

[LEAFer]

The example I mentioned above worked well for the owners. They did their homework, and the dealer was eager to trade given their large inventory of unsold 2012s.

And what did the dealer(s) do with the traded-in LEAF ?

 

[surfingslovak]

And what did the dealer(s) do with the traded-in LEAF ?

Not sure about that, and I can only hope that nobody was left with the short side of this deal. Sounds like Nissan might need a battery refresh program for returned lease vehicles and trade-ins.

 

[adric22]

Does anyone know if the manufacturer producing the batteries for Nissan will sell the cells to other people? We could refurbish them ourselves if they did.

 

[TaylorSFGuy]

I have considered some of these options (not the battery swap). The range extender isn't really an option I'm comfortable with. One of their dealers I contacted earlier in the week has advised me that Engineer has filed for bankruptcy and he advised against purchasing any units that may be available until the dust settles.

As for a used battery - I've already spoken to a large parts reseller in the area and they haven't had any and their view is "We will make a great deal of money once we start getting the batteries for all EVs." So likely no bargains there although I wonder how accurately I could check it's status short of installing it in the car.

Getting a new battery or car puts me in the same position in another 16 months so maybe I should explore the Tesla option. At 100K miles, I would have saved approx. $10,000 in fuel costs and the battery pack replacement made sense (albiet not desirable).

What gets me is that Nissan has basically said I can't replace my "engine" because they are only available in new cars and a dealer can't sell me one even if they understand the situation. Why doesn't Nissan say something like "The cost is X but we are unable to provide the pack until such and such a date."? I can't make an informed decision without knowing what the cost is to go forward.

All they have done is sour my view of Nissan because they are so warry of Covering their A....

If I knew there was an end to en-route charging, I could include that in the equation but an open ended middle finger response is unacceptable.

 

[TaylorSFGuy]

And what did the dealer(s) do with the traded-in LEAF ?

Not sure about that, and I can only hope that nobody was left with the short side of this deal. Sounds like Nissan might need a battery refresh program for returned lease vehicles and trade-ins.

Don't you lease owners worry that Nissan will say you have abused your battery in some manner and assess a penalty at return? After all, what is acceptable to Nissan hasn't been quantified except for vague "reduction of range" statements. Who is to say what is reasonable - if you have lost 10% at 36K miles that may be excessive use if you are a lease return but it apparently isn't if you own the car.

 

[LEAFer]

Don't you lease owners worry that Nissan will say you have abused your battery in some manner and assess a penalty at return? After all, what is acceptable to Nissan hasn't been quantified except for vague "reduction of range" statements. Who is to say what is reasonable - if you have lost 10% at 36K miles that may be excessive use if you are a lease return but it apparently isn't if you own the car.

I'm not worried. The situation you describe is a clear case of "discriminatory practice" ( I am NOT a lwayer, and I do NOT play one on TV ). There's *NO WAY* Nissan can tell me year after year "everything is normal" and "your annual battery check is 5/5 stars" three years in a row, and THEN claim excessive wear & tear !

 

[DaveEV]

Getting a new battery or car puts me in the same position in another 16 months so maybe I should explore the Tesla option. At 100K miles, I would have saved approx. $10,000 in fuel costs and the battery pack replacement made sense (albiet not desirable).

This sounds like a case for the Advisory Board, especially considering that you are a high visibility owner probably putting miles on your LEAF faster than just about anybody...

In any case - look at the RAV4-EV option. You can get one today, it's cheaper than the Tesla by $7.5k and has basically the same drivetrain as the Model S 40kWh vehicle. It has a 42 kWh battery pack and EPA rated range of 103 miles which I understand is a blended range between standard charge and range charge. Toyota will rent these to potential customers for something like $35/day to demo and dealers are starting to get demo cars on their lots now. Give it a shot...

Edit: Darn - only available in California right now...

 

[Herm]

Its possible you can purchase form-factored lithium cells that match what the Leaf uses.. then do a bit of surgery.

no, its not possible. if his problems were defective cells, Nissan DOES warranty that. its degradation which will be equal across all the cells in a well balanced pack

I meant all 192 cells, replaced with new non-Nissan cells.. obviously the same physical size and voltages

 

[edatoakrun]

...Why doesn't Nissan say something like "The cost is X but we are unable to provide the pack until such and such a date."? I can't make an informed decision without knowing what the cost is to go forward...

As I have posted many times, IMO, Nissan should state the replacement cost and battery pack trade-in procedure ASAP.

Nissan's reluctance is probably just based on its own desire to wring the most profit (or smallest losses) from sales of both new cars and replacement batteries from the market.

Your particular situation seems to be exacerbated by the fact that you sound like you need somewhat more than 80% of "new" battery capacity, for "comfortable" use. This is going to mean replacing either your battery (or your car) more frequently than optimum, for lowest operating costs.

I expect a LEAF, even with frequent battery replacement, will be a much less expensive alternative to an Tesla S, but given your driving patterns, you probably want a BEV with more like 30 kWh total battery capacity, rather than the 24 of our LEAFs, to get the lowest TOC.

And today, their just aren't any credible (IMO) BEV alternatives to the LEAF, that meet your requirements.

I'd like that 30 kWh too, as I may hit the 75%-80% capacity level I need, after even fewer miles than you have now.

However, since I expect that will probably be after another 3 to 6 years (I hope, closer to 6) for myself and most other LEAF drivers with much lower annual miles driven, I expect there should be multiple options for battery replacement that do not exist for you today.

 

[TonyWilliams]

as far as trading goes? I could not see myself trading now when the REAL LEAF I want maybe coming out in 2014. there is already rumors running around about battery upgrades coming mid to late 2013...

Holding my breath!! How many thought 2013 models would have a new battery? I doubt the 2014 will have a different battery, but maybe late 2014 for a 2015 model.

That's based on announcements from 2009.

 

[TonyWilliams]

Getting a new battery or car puts me in the same position in another 16 months so maybe I should explore the Tesla option. At 100K miles, I would have saved approx. $10,000 in fuel costs and the battery pack replacement made sense (albiet not desirable).

This sounds like a case for the Advisory Board, especially considering that you are a high visibility owner probably putting miles on your LEAF faster than just about anybody...

In any case - look at the RAV4-EV option. You can get one today, it's cheaper than the Tesla by $7.5k and has basically the same drivetrain as the Model S 40kWh vehicle. It has a 42 kWh battery pack and EPA rated range of 103 miles which I understand is a blended range between standard charge and range charge. Toyota will rent these to potential customers for something like $35/day to demo and dealers are starting to get demo cars on their lots now. Give it a shot...

Edit: Darn - only available in California right now...

If he buys one, I'm sure we could tag team drive it up!!