Strange uneven tire wear

[apara]

2019 Nissan Leaf SV
Michelin energy saver all-season tire
P215/50R17

I am super meticulous when it comes to taking care of my tires. I rotate them every 5 to 7k miles. I keep them inflated at 40 psi. I took my car for tire rotation a few days ago and was told I needed to get new tires instead. The car only has 28k miles, and these are the original tires. They are mostly worn precisely the same. The thread toward the outside is significantly less than the thread toward the car—all of them.

Indeed, the car must be out of alignment. So, I took it to the alignment shop, and he told me there was nothing wrong with my alignment. I called Nissan, but their customer service person said that I was the ONLY one who commented on this and that Nissan was unaware of any such issues. I opened a case.

I have not tried to call the dealer, who I suspect would say the same thing.

Yes, the tires are old, show some rot, and probably need replacement. But the fact that I only got 28k on the thread is concerning.

Has anyone had a similar tire experience?

I was ready to pay the alignment shop money, but he said nothing was wrong.
I briefly asked him if he had observed any suspension issues, and he said no.

He also said that some cars naturally wear out tires unevenly (news to me) and recommended I go to Costco for tires.

Are my expectations of this car too high? I mostly leased these before and never kept one for longer than 3 years.

Thanks.

 

[knightmb]

I've had the same experience for over a decade of Leaf driving and here is what I believe.

As with the 12V battery in an EV, tires for an EV were not a good match with the already existing technology designed around ICE vehicles. You'll notice how vastly un-even wear is on the front versus the back if you track the tread depth over time like I have. Tires on the back of the Leaf, provided the alignment and wheel balance are good, experience almost no wear. Not zero of course, but compared to the front, it might as well be zero.

First issue, tire warranties. Nearly every tire warranty works on a pro-rated basis when you read the fine print. That means if you were to buy tires rated for 50k miles and they go bald at 25k miles, you don't get a new set for free. Instead you get a new set at a pro-rated wear price of half. Add the labor cost which is usually not covered under warranty and you barely save enough money to get the actual distance warranty depending on how long your tires lasted.

Second issue, tire softness. Years back when EVs (including the Leaf) were making it to consumers to drive, everyone immediately noticed that the tires just did not last, no matter what brand you tried. It's like all of a sudden, tires were lucky to get half of the rated warranty. As someone who has put many hundreds of thousands of miles on many brands of tires on many different ICE vehicles over the years, something seemed to be wrong. Sure, you buy cheap tires, you might only get 2/3 of the warranty out of them, but again, they were cheap tires, you didn't notice it as much. The only way to defeat the EV tires consuming machine was to buy very hard compound, long distance tires. Unfortunately, they were usually terrible for range. EVs just eat soft tires like they are pencil erasers dragging down the road.

Finally, why does all of this happen? My theory, EVs like the Leaf have a lot of torque in the front, the front is also the steering tires, and the front is also the stopping tires. Because the Leaf can apply both Regen + Brake Pads at the same time, the front tires basically take all the abuse for tire wear. The rear tires just roll along and short of an emergency stop, almost never experience a large braking force against the road like the front tires do. So, cheap tires in the past that worked fine on a front-wheel drive ICE vehicle do not perform the same on the Leaf. That's why tire manufactures have some special line of "EV Only" tires to address this. Unfortunately, those tires are more expensive because they give you better tire life and better range, usually excellent performance to go with it.

Basically, EVs need tougher tires and the cheap ones that worked fine on the similar ICE form factor vehicle size like the Leaf don't hold up to the extra torque and braking ability of the Leaf in comparison. To get tires that will last longer, you end up sacrificing range on the EV because the tires are just not designed to work with the unique conditions of driving an EV. To get tires with both good life and that won't give you a major range hit end up being very expensive, but buying them still works out in the long run because the extra money you spent for the "EV Only" tire works out about the same as buying the non-EV version that can barely make it to half the warranty if you are willing to give up the time to get them replaced and pay the extra labor fees at the shop to enforce the tire warranty. So, it's not your fault if you rotate the tires every 5k miles exactly, keep the Leaf in perfect wheel alignment and balance the tires every week, the tires used are still the weakness link unfortunately.

 

[LeftieBiker]

It seems to me that we have had quite a few people claim increased longevity with higher tire pressures. (I'm not a good test case, given the few miles I drive a year.) It would make sense, given that higher pressures make the tire more rigid, meaning less rubber-weakening flexing under braking and acceleration (also an issue here) loads. Even softer compounds would wear more slowly in that case, given that tread that deforms less while driving will lose less rubber.

 

[FinnishCoffee]

Also keep in mind that the tires that are on the car from the factory are often optimized for certain metrics that are important for selling new vehicles. Efficiency, NVH, light weight etc. that make the car look good on paper and when test driven, but might be lacking in long term durability. I would look for tires from a reputable brand that have a high weight rating (usually marked XL or SUV as well) to increase durability and keep tire pressures at about 45 psi as often recommended on this forum. Also as stated by knightmb, the wear is pretty uneven between the front and rear axles, so it makes sense to regularly rotate the tires, especially in climates where seasonal tire changes are not a thing.

 

[apara]

What's disappointing is the uneven wear. In this case I thought the alignment check would reveal positive camber, but it did not.

Yet the tire wear is greater on the outside than inside on all the tires. I feel the tire could go twice the distance if the outside and inside wear were more balanced.

Is this type of wear, resembling positive camber misalignment, typical?

Thanks.

 

[DunanyDon]

2019 Nissan Leaf SV
Michelin energy saver all-season tire
P215/50R17

I am super meticulous when it comes to taking care of my tires. I rotate them every 5 to 7k miles. I keep them inflated at 40 psi. I took my car for tire rotation a few days ago and was told I needed to get new tires instead. The car only has 28k miles, and these are the original tires. They are mostly worn precisely the same. The thread toward the outside is significantly less than the thread toward the car—all of them.

Indeed, the car must be out of alignment. So, I took it to the alignment shop, and he told me there was nothing wrong with my alignment. I called Nissan, but their customer service person said that I was the ONLY one who commented on this and that Nissan was unaware of any such issues. I opened a case.

I have not tried to call the dealer, who I suspect would say the same thing.

Yes, the tires are old, show some rot, and probably need replacement. But the fact that I only got 28k on the thread is concerning.

Has anyone had a similar tire experience?

I was ready to pay the alignment shop money, but he said nothing was wrong.
I briefly asked him if he had observed any suspension issues, and he said no.

He also said that some cars naturally wear out tires unevenly (news to me) and recommended I go to Costco for tires.

Are my expectations of this car too high? I mostly leased these before and never kept one for longer than 3 years.

Thanks.

You mention that your ties are worn on the outside edges. This could a combination of aggressive cornering and the roads you drive on. The aggregate used in asphalt varies depending on what is available locally and the aggregate used in your area may be quite abrasive. The problem is more likely wheel alignment, so it might be worth going to another alignment shop to get a second opinion, especially if the shop you went to doesn't have the latest laser alignment equipment.

 

[RNeil]

You should rotate tires front to back, but not left to right. Are you keeping your tires on the same side when you rotate them?

I keep my tires at 36 psi because that is the Nissan recommendation. But the symptom you describe does not sound like over inflation.

 

[nlspace]

Yet the tire wear is greater on the outside than inside on all the tires

Post up your alignment sheet--this sounds like toe-out to me.

There is no adjustment for camber unless you want to slot out your upper strut mounting holes (which i did on a subaru years ago). Easy to check for camber with a metal framing square and a bubble level. Or with an app on some phones...

The wear is likely on the front and you have evened it out doing periodic wheel rotation. But check the camber on all of them, maybe the rear is out of spec.

 

[Drew21]

As suggested by several of the previous comments, if you combine:

1) a heavy, powerful front wheel drive vehicle (relatively speaking) +
2) with soft sidewall tires, which may not be inflated to an optimal level by the Nissan specifications +
3) and/or an aggressive driver (OP will have to comment on driving style) +
4) and/or very curvy local roads +
5) and/or potential slight front wheel misalignment =

Excessive wear on the outer shoulder of your tires.

 

[bojoho]

Post up your alignment sheet--this sounds like toe-out to me.

There is no adjustment for camber unless you want to slot out your upper strut mounting holes (which i did on a subaru years ago). Easy to check for camber with a metal framing square and a bubble level. Or with an app on some phones...

The wear is likely on the front and you have evened it out doing periodic wheel rotation. But check the camber on all of them, maybe the rear is out of spec.

If you are referring to the front end, I think you meant to say there is no "Caster" adjustment for the leaf. Unless you make new strut tower holes like I did on my 2018 Leaf.

Apara, seems like you like to peel out on the corners. No? I never liked the mich Energy savr. The 17" have tighter alignment spec than the smaller wheels. Please post your alignment specs, maybe the shop was basing their asseament on the 16" wheel specs

 

[apara]

If you are referring to the front end, I think you meant to say there is no "Caster" adjustment for the leaf. Unless you make new strut tower holes like I did on my 2018 Leaf.

Apara, seems like you like to peel out on the corners. No? I never liked the mich Energy savr. The 17" have tighter alignment spec than the smaller wheels. Please post your alignment specs, maybe the shop was basing their asseament on the 16" wheel specs

I don't pretend it's a race car. I typically drive in ECO mode with E-brake on, so I never have to use the brakes.

Some people asked for a copy of the alignment sheet; here it is (attached).

The alignment shop said mostly what folks here said... The car is heavy, and this is typical tire wear.

Since I will have to get new tires, do you guys have any recommendations of what to get instead of Mich Energy Saver? My priority is to keep the range and possibly get them to last longer than 29K miles. Is this reasonable?

Thanks.

 

[bojoho]

Sorry to hear you only got 28k miles. The Michelin energy saver (with 25k) did not instill confidence in the cold wet roads of Pacific Northwest so I changed them out at about 30k. the tread wear was even though. And they felt good in the summer time, and I considered keeping them for just summer and probably could have easily got >40k.

I have Vredestein Quatracs now on 15" wheels. They don't make them for 17" wheels.

I think pertinent Tire recommendations would depend on your climate. I'm guessing there are many threads here that review tire choices.

 

[mux]

What people might be missing here is the suspension geometry. The Leaf has a fairly simple McPherson front suspension with just a single lower torsion bar and - at least in gen2+ - low upper stiffness. This means that the difference in camber between hard acceleration and hard braking is exaggerated by the flexure in the car itself. That makes any kind of fine-tuned alignment pretty useless, if you use even a third of your torque regularly, the brunt of the tire wear will happen on the outside.

 

[apara]

Sorry to hear you only got 28k miles. The Michelin energy saver (with 25k) did not instill confidence in the cold wet roads of Pacific Northwest so I changed them out at about 30k. the tread wear was even though. And they felt good in the summer time, and I considered keeping them for just summer and probably could have easily got >40k.

I have Vredestein Quatracs now on 15" wheels. They don't make them for 17" wheels.

I think pertinent Tire recommendations would depend on your climate. I'm guessing there are many threads here that review tire choices.

I live in Southern California. My goal for new tires is not so much comfort (it's a commuter car) as energy economy (keeping the range the same or better) and reduced wear. These are 17-inch wheels.

Thanks for all your help and tire suggestions.

 

[nlspace]

a copy of the alignment sheet

So the Left Rear has excessive toe-in in my opinion. Not sure how to adjust it, but that will scrub the outer edges of the tire. Maybe the left rear hit a curb or pothole at some point...

+0.27 degrees is a little less than 1/8" or about 3mm of toe-in. To me that is huge. It is easy to adjust front tires to toe-in at +/- .15 mm.

The "before" showed the Front Right to be toe-out, so you were steering to the left all the time in order to travel straight, and this would wear out the outer edge of the front right tire.

So when you rotated tires they all got worn on the outer edges, Left side from the Rear and Right side from the Front.

 

[apara]

So the Left Rear has excessive toe-in in my opinion. Not sure how to adjust it, but that will scrub the outer edges of the tire. Maybe the left rear hit a curb or pothole at some point...

+0.27 degrees is a little less than 1/8" or about 3mm of toe-in. To me that is huge. It is easy to adjust front tires to toe-in at +/- .15 mm.

The "before" showed the Front Right to be toe-out, so you were steering to the left all the time in order to travel straight, and this would wear out the outer edge of the front right tire.

So when you rotated tires they all got worn on the outer edges, Left side from the Rear and Right side from the Front.

Thank you. I will visit another shop, an authorized Michelin dealer, to see if I can get my tires pro-rated. I believe these are rated for 55k miles, but I only got 28k out of them. I will ask them to check the alignment and suspension well.

There are indeed differences on "Before" vs "Current", but they have not done any alignment and only checked. So, I suspect that these are just measuring variations.

 

[TronJockey]

I don't pretend it's a race car. I typically drive in ECO mode with E-brake on, so I never have to use the brakes.

Some people asked for a copy of the alignment sheet; here it is (attached).

The alignment shop said mostly what folks here said... The car is heavy, and this is typical tire wear.

Since I will have to get new tires, do you guys have any recommendations of what to get instead of Mich Energy Saver? My priority is to keep the range and possibly get them to last longer than 29K miles. Is this reasonable?

Thanks.

I listened to Niki on her Transport Evolved YouTube channel a few years ago. She switched to Nokian EnTyres on her Nissan Leaf, so I replaced my worn-out Michelins with a set about two years ago. They have done well for 20,000 miles so far. They are known for having a very low rolling resistance which I've confirmed with my Leaf's solid 4.0 miles/kWh. We'll have to wait and see how long they last though.

 

[BlackFeuille]

What's disappointing is the uneven wear. In this case I thought the alignment check would reveal positive camber, but it did not.

Yet the tire wear is greater on the outside than inside on all the tires. I feel the tire could go twice the distance if the outside and inside wear were more balanced.

Is this type of wear, resembling positive camber misalignment, typical?

Thanks.

To go twice the distance you would have to be worn out on the outside with almost no wear on the inside. (Yes, this assumes camber only issues.) Do you have tread depth measurements to share? Inner, mid and outer grooves, please.

 

[BlackFeuille]

Notice the valleys in the printout. There's an "inner" valley and "outer" valley. You want your alignment to be within the inner valleys. The outer valley is the worst the alignment can be without serious issues. Only one measurement* is outside the inner valley. Left front caster.

Look for suspension damage or possible wear in the front particularly on the left. There could be, for example, a bad tie rod end. Bent component. Worn bushing. Notice the red in your printout? I'm surprised that your tech that said your alignment has "nothing wrong".

I've done alignments by hand for many years.

* There is no tire wear associated with steer ahead.

 

[summetj]

We replaced the OEM tires on our 2015 leaf at 44k with the "PLUS" version of the OEM tire [ Bridgestone Ecopia EP 422 PLUS 205 / 55 R16 ] which are supposed to have better longevity than the "non-plus" OEM tires.

We are now at 73k (29k on the new set) and they are doing well still.