New Nissan LEAF Survey

[solarman]

I just took the survey. I agree with others that some of the survey questions were poorly set up. For example:

• At the beginning they ask for your Make, Model and Year, but there's no drop down or field to enter the year???
• Charging Location Choices - should have included a category "other"
• I prefer "slower" (L1 or L2) charging most of the time and it was not clear what option was available
• The price range for charging seemed really high. $50 for a charging session, really? or $50/month subscription? sorry, not me

If you figure the LEAF's current 24kWH battery is worth about $8-$10K, paying an additional $5K for twice the range seems reasonable, especially considering what other EVs are selling for these days. As far as charging infrastructure I'd rather see lots more public L1 and L2 charging than too many fast DC charging stations concentrated in small areas.

 

[jlsoaz]

Just got an email from Nissan asking me to take a survey. The interesting thing about the survey is they use a theoretical "150 mile range Nissan Leaf" in many of the questions.
They also asked lots of question about charging stations.

Has anyone else taken this survey. Maybe 150 mile range leaf will be here sooner than we think!!!

Agree with your highlighting of this aspect of the survey.

The focus was:
1. Possible future EVSE and my various cost and benefit perspectives.
2. Possible future increase from 75 to 150 mile EPA range, and what I'd be willing to pay.
- How either or both of these changes would affect any future purchase or re-purchase decision on my part.

I tried to emphasize clearly that the 2nd one, I"d pay *a lot* (to me). There is no way I can lease another 75 mile range vehicle. I'd be delighted (**ecstatic**) to consider leasing a 150 mile range vehicle. I'd add another $200-$250 per month if I have to, to what I'm paying (though I'd like to keep it to $150 or less, which is what I put). A note that no matter what the national lease terms put (such as $199 per month) I generally had to add $100 per month to get to the real-world of what I actually pay (I pay $327 per month). This applied to the Volt negotiations also.

I'd also consider financing/buying and adding $10k-$15k (or maybe even a bit more) to the present-day MSRP if only they would please (please, please, please, please) add an option of more kWh and get us up to that 90-110 highway-usable-miles range.

 

[dgpcolorado]

Answered it last night. It was clear to me they focused on two (very important IMO) things;
1. What type of public charging do I prefer and where do I want it?
2. Would I buy another LEAF if it had a 150 mile range?

I must say I have been asked/answered more industry surveys in the four months I have had my LEAF than with any item before in my life. Of them, this was the most directly focused.

Yes, this was the best LEAF survey they've come up with yet.

I was surprised that the extra cost scale for the larger battery went up to only $5000. I'd be willing to pay more than that. A larger battery LEAF very much would be of interest to me. But it depends on whether or not Tesla can come up with an affordable EV that can use their supercharger network (I remain skeptical). A 150 mile Tesla could easily get me to Denver (310 miles one way plus lots of mountains) and back via the superchargers already in place.

The EV market could get interesting in a few more years.

 

[jlsoaz]

I was surprised that the extra cost scale for the larger battery went up to only $5000. I'd be willing to pay more than that.

Agree completely. For something like the 2x range, I'd be willing to pay up to about $10k-$15k more. The survey did offer a broad range of increased lease payments, but the increased MSRP possibilities seemed limited.

My willingness to pay more for more kWh existed before I got my Leaf. What prevented me from doing so was not a choice to get a lower-kWh vehicle but the lack of any really solid high-quality options in the area of kWh and MSRP and monthly lease, except maybe the compromise of a Toyota RAV4 EV.

I almost did finance the purchase of a RAV4 EV instead of my leasing of a Leaf, but aside from the price and range multipliers not being quite there, it was a bridge just a little too far as far as the other impediments to purchase/lease that Toyota put in the way. Had I waited another few months for the price and the lease costs to come down, I would have done it. [Don't get me wrong, I won't take back that I am overall grateful to Nissan for the Leaf, but with that said, it is important to be clear to them for my next purchasing decisions.]

 

[DanCar]

...<snip>... 36 kwh pack would easily fit into the leaf but would be heavier ...

Nissan is talking about a higher density battery, so could weigh less or more.

It would be excited if they improved the performance of the leaf with the bigger battery. 120mph top speed?

 

[Reddy]

I don't normally answer surveys, but I might have to this time. It's good to see Nissan trying to understand the future market. That said, please don't tell them that "you'd be willing to spend a lot more." For Nissan to be successful with the EV they should target current ICE pricing and range without any subsidies. By the time this "future EV" (new Leaf, infinity, 3-seater, or whatever) comes to market, Nissan will likely be close to the 200,000 vehicle limit on the $7500 tax credit. They need to produce the EPA rated 150-mi vehicle at the same cost as today's Leaf without the credit, so somewhere around $25k-$30k. Sure, I don't need the range, but others seem to. Given this, I think having multiple battery options would be useful and perhaps they could offer the smaller battery for $20k-$25k. As for charging, most commuters will be fine with L2 (either 3.3 or 6 KW) at home. However, as others have said, charging on the road will require the "fastest" charging that technology can generate. The Tesla model seems to be the way to go. Given that Nissan is behind in this regard, I'd say they had better plan on DCQC at 50-100 KW, even though it will be overkill for many situations (e.g., at work, theater, dinner) where a 3-6 KW L2 is sufficient.

It's funny how our "needs" seem to change with what is possible. I just "need" a small NEV that can get me 10 mi in the winter (pre-heating, and enclosed of course). But now that I have the Leaf, I try to drive it everywhere, including outside of it's range and sometimes farther than I need. Given my past experiences, perhaps I will eventually go for the 150 mi version and end up "needing" a quick charger so that I can travel to Seattle, Portland, or Spokane (150 to 200 mi away).

 

[Reddy]

http://insideevs.com/nissan-asks-how-much-of-a-premium-would-you-pay-for-a-150-mile-epa-rated-leaf/

 

[smkettner]

Still if I am going to end up with a 105 mile car in three years.... might still go Tesla.

 

[adric22]

Still if I am going to end up with a 105 mile car in three years.... might still go Tesla.

I would hope this new battery would incorporate the heat tolerant chemistry, which means in 3 years you might have 125 miles instead. Either that, or maybe they'll put in a thermal management system.

 

[oakwcj]

Got mine yesterday also, almost finished it, then it began asking the typical demographic questions about gender, annual income, and the like. Unfortunately, these required mandatory answers which I prefer to not do so I exited the survey and my input was lost to Nissan.

That said, the survey did ask questions about what could become the charging business model. Several questions posed a price-vs.-speed thought, i.e., would you rather QC at a faster rate for a higher cost than the reverse? And how much would you be willing to pay for a larger battery pack? Actually, with the exception of not being able to skip the personal information, I was impressed by the questions being asked.

They weren't mandatory, unless you object to answering "decline to state."

 

[jlsoaz]

I don't normally answer surveys, but I might have to this time. It's good to see Nissan trying to understand the future market. That said, please don't tell them that "you'd be willing to spend a lot more."

fwiw, IMO, Nissan made a mistake in offering only 24 kWh for 2011 and has compounded the error by not moving to offer more since then. They seem to be afraid to ask if they can offer us 24 kWh or so more for more than $5k? Really? Of course they can ask us for $5k to $10k for 20+ more kWh.

I'm not sure why Nissan hasn't heard us more clearly, but if part of the reason is that those of us who wanted more range tempered our comments too much, then I guess I'm belatedly shouting to some extent with my answer on the survey (perhaps even exaggerating a bit, but not much), and I kind of feel like I have to stand by that here:

24 kWh is not enough for some of us. .... I won't lease another 24 kWh BEV. .... I will gladly consider leasing another Nissan BEV if Nissan significantly ups the kWh. ... I have to be honest, I'd gladly pay more than $5k for another 75 miles of EPA range. Exactly how much more is hard for me personally to say, and subject to change, but in 2014 I'd definitely pay more than $5k for 75 more EPA miles.

That said, I think regardless of what prices and specs we may talk about now, I think basically the question is overall:

If Tesla actually comes out in 2016 or so with an under $40k BEV with 125-200 miles EPA range, what will happen to everyone else? If they are serious about being in and profiting in the volume and high-quality BEV business in the US, can they consider staying in the 24 kWh range for their max range vehicle? I don't think so. I suppose a changing public EVSE landscape, with both fast DC and faster AC, does change the equations, and it's something I will need to consider, and I may have to retract some of my views, but for now my view is that Nissan and other BEV makers will have to offer well more than 100 miles EPA, and if Tesla follows through) then they'll have to do it for below $40k. My thought has been that if Tesla follows through, then the other BEV makers may really not have that much choice.

Another nearby related development was that Infiniti's proposal to do a luxury BEV a few quarters ago I think with only 24 kWh, was in my view a non-starter (and they seemed to rescind it), but I think could be successful if Nissan would be willing to roll with the answers on the surveys and adjust its thinking and move on to a higher kWh BEV. It would be really interesting if we were to get a true BEV luxury competitor to the lower end Tesla 60 kWh vehicle. I couldn't afford it, but it would be interesting.

Happy to admit I could be wrong as to the overall balance between higher-kWh vehicle issuance and more-better-faster-EVSE issuance, but I think for now, the need to issue higher kWh higher range vehicles seems strong.

For Nissan to be successful with the EV they should target current ICE pricing and range without any subsidies. By the time this "future EV" (new Leaf, infinity, 3-seater, or whatever) comes to market, Nissan will likely be close to the 200,000 vehicle limit on the $7500 tax credit. They need to produce the EPA rated 150-mi vehicle at the same cost as today's Leaf without the credit, so somewhere around $25k-$30k. Sure, I don't need the range, but others seem to. Given this, I think having multiple battery options would be useful and perhaps they could offer the smaller battery for $20k-$25k. As for charging, most commuters will be fine with L2 (either 3.3 or 6 KW) at home. However, as others have said, charging on the road will require the "fastest" charging that technology can generate. The Tesla model seems to be the way to go. Given that Nissan is behind in this regard, I'd say they had better plan on DCQC at 50-100 KW, even though it will be overkill for many situations (e.g., at work, theater, dinner) where a 3-6 KW L2 is sufficient.

It's funny how our "needs" seem to change with what is possible. I just "need" a small NEV that can get me 10 mi in the winter (pre-heating, and enclosed of course). But now that I have the Leaf, I try to drive it everywhere, including outside of it's range and sometimes farther than I need. Given my past experiences, perhaps I will eventually go for the 150 mi version and end up "needing" a quick charger so that I can travel to Seattle, Portland, or Spokane (150 to 200 mi away).

 

[thankyouOB]

First, i love my LEAF.

Second, as long as I am commuting, I save 2k a year on fuel. I have solar for all my needs, pretty much.
so I can do the math.
i would pay 5k for 2x existing battery.


the only issue for me is that i will be retiring from commuting on a regular basis in a year and have to consider whether i can utilize the larger battery for other occasional trips, where i dont want the rather small challenge of finding an open evse.

that said, jlsoaz is spot on with his observation that a downscale Tesla with upscale range would put a torpedo below the waterline to most or all the other existing EVs. the only problem is that the new Tesla is still as much a pipedream as a LEAF with 150-mile range.

 

[Berlino]

It would be really interesting if we were to get a true BEV luxury competitor to the lower end Infiniti 60 kWh vehicle.

Hasn't the Infiniti BEV been shelved?

 

[DanCar]

Hasn't the Infiniti BEV been shelved?

It will be taken off the shelf, after new battery is available.
http://www.autonews.com/article/20130717/OEM05/130719873/infiniti-ev-delayed-to-await-new-technology-exec-says#axzz2rq6BcYDY" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[adric22]

that said, jlsoaz is spot on with his observation that a downscale Tesla with upscale range would put a torpedo below the waterline to most or all the other existing EVs. the only problem is that the new Tesla is still as much a pipedream as a LEAF with 150-mile range.

Not necessarily. Nissan has already demonstrated a Leaf with a 48Wkh battery pack. Very few details about this pack have been released, but we know it exists. Tesla, however, has not demonstrated a Model-E, or even so much as shown us a rendering of what it will look like.

 

[GaslessInSeattle]

hmm, I own a Leaf and I have not gotten this survey... though they hear from me probably more than they wish on their facebook page. I'm going to flip this around and ask, "can the Leaf survive if Nissan doesn't increase the range substantially, without raising the price?" Nissan so far seems too pleased with itself for being able to sell quite a few Leafs with it's 20ish kW's of range. we are now seeing the 4th year running without any change in capacity, just incremental improvements in efficiency. It would appear that they think there is a long term market for their 100 miles of downhill, back to the wind, range, something that is more like 70 ish miles on a good day and as bad as 45 on a cold, windy, rainy day. there are a lot of modest mouses around here who are willing to make this work for principles sake, but I think that market is limited and will be short lived. Seattle is one of their hottest markets, and I can tell you the mood around here is swiftly shifting as the charging ques grow long and their CHAdeMO plugs keep breaking. I think Nissan needs to offer 150 miles as the base and an upgrade to 200 miles to stay even close to competitive. the closer Tesla's E comes to being a reality, the steeper a hill the Leaf will have to climb. Tesla's charging network is hitting the ball out of the stadium. It feels a lot like game over for just about every other EV on the market, honestly. Nissan seems to have no realistic plan to get a charging network in place and it looks a lot like there is not viable business model that can make it happen. Nissan needs to find a way to fund a charging network and do it fast!

I like the Leaf, probably will have to Lease another one in 2015 when the current lease runs out, to get us into Tesla X/E territory. I do hope Nissan gets it's act together. I have to add that Nissan really has a credibility issue right now that dampens enthusiasm. I was told, under no uncertain terms, that the Leaf had been thoroughly tested, near Phoenix Arizona, under extreme heat and that after 6 billion in R&D, that the dealer was absolutely sure the battery was up to the task. I live in a cool climate, so in a way it's no biggy, but the fact is, the battery can't handle extreme heat, doesn't even handle moderate heat all that well, and how that effects me is in the value proposition, the residual value of the Leaf is terrible, the worst of any car I've ever owned! I feel very fortunate to have found a way to trade in my 2012 and essentially convert it to a leased 2012 without it hurting too bad. Along with having poor resale value, the market is going to require proof of the new leaf's "heat resistance" before believing the same story as before. Nissan will need to do another round of great Lease deals to get this new battery out on the road, then after a couple of years and lots of user data, people may trust Nissan again... but by then, Tesla will have likely eaten Nissan's lunch, unless Nissan does something major to improve the value proposition very soon!

 

[Berlino]

Hasn't the Infiniti BEV been shelved?

It will be taken off the shelf, after new battery is available.
http://www.autonews.com/article/20130717/OEM05/130719873/infiniti-ev-delayed-to-await-new-technology-exec-says#axzz2rq6BcYDY" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

That article is six months old, and the latest news leaves less room for optimism:

http://www.plugincars.com/infiniti-le-delayed-indefinitely-129254.html

Notably, the concept car wasn't at the Detroit auto show and President Nysschen, a known EV detractor, denied its indefinite shelving was due to efforts to give it greater range.

 

[jlsoaz]

hmm, I own a Leaf and I have not gotten this survey.

suggest look in your spam or inbox in just the general area. I just happened to see the email mixed in with everything - it did not get filtered to any of my usual Nissan inboxes.

 

[DanCar]

...the latest news leaves less room for optimism: http://www.plugincars.com/infiniti-le-delayed-indefinitely-129254.html Notably, the concept car wasn't at the Detroit auto show and President Nysschen, a known EV detractor, denied its indefinite shelving was due to efforts to give it greater range.

Hmmm, does that mean the 2015 Nissan Leaf will look like the Infiniti LE?

 

[jlsoaz]

hmm, I own a Leaf and I have not gotten this survey.

suggest look in your spam or inbox in just the general area. I just happened to see the email mixed in with everything - it did not get filtered to any of my usual Nissan inboxes.

Fwiw, here is what it looked like:

"To:
Subject: Nissan LEAF Survey
From: Nissan Market Intelligence <[email protected]>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2014 19:34:44 -0700 (MST)"