Musk : Tesla may open up Super Charger as a standard

[dgpcolorado]

The Tesla forums are alive with fear that their supercharger stations will be filled with Leafs trying to stuff every last free electron they can. And I don't blame them, that has been my experience at chademo stations as well. There can be a line of three cars waiting while people chademo to 100%. I have never had the opportunity to use one due to this.

The smaller the battery, the more desperate people are to get a charge. My work lot is filled with plug-in Prius' and Volts squeezing every little bit they can into their tiny batteries. I'm sure that's how Tesla owners feel about Leafs.

That may be but the Tesla approach to Supercharger stations seems to be way different from the Chademo model: Tesla puts multiple chargers at each location and professes a willingness to add more if those chargers get backed up by heavy use. A typical Supercharger station seems to have four chargers and those in higher traffic areas can have many more than that. Compare that to a typical Chademo location.

Anyway, the uncooled and temperature-sensitive LEAF battery is notably unsuitable for Supercharging. If Nissan were to sign on to the Tesla Supercharger network it would need to radically redesign the battery packs in the cars or even adopt Tesla packs. I consider that very unlikely for the foreseeable future. More likely would be another manufacturer that wants to dip its toes in the EV market and sees adopting Tesla technology as an easy way to do that.

IMHO, of course. My crystal ball isn't any better than that of anyone else!

 

[Nubo]

...Of course you need to have a roughly 60Kwh pack to use SuperChargers anyway. ...

I can't see why that would be a technical hurdle. The supercharger does ramp down the current as the Tesla battery fills, so it's not like it would necessarily push 120kW into a 23kWH pack. You may not get to another supercharger though.

 

[TomT]

+1!

The smaller the battery, the more desperate people are to get a charge. My work lot is filled with plug-in Prius' and Volts squeezing every little bit they can into their tiny batteries. I'm sure that's how Tesla owners feel about Leafs.

 

[evnow]

Musk would like other companies to get tied to his "standard" and network. But, no OEM will be stupid enough to sign on to this "offer" from Tesla. They might as well give away their company to Musk for free instead.

Let me restate that - No OEM will be stupid enough to sign on to this "offer" from Tesla for their serious EVs. For compliance EVs they may - but then the compliance EVs don't have the range necessary to actually do road trips using the charging network.

 

[TomT]

I fail to see how making their vehicles compatible with the Tesla Supercharger Network, while maintaining current L2 and L3 capability, amounts to "giving away their company..." It's no different than making it Chademo or SAE capable...

Musk would like other companies to get tied to his "standard" and network. But, no OEM will be stupid enough to sign on to this "offer" from Tesla. They might as well give away their company to Musk for free instead.

 

[evnow]

I fail to see how making their vehicles compatible with the Tesla Supercharger Network, while maintaining current L2 and L3 capability, amounts to "giving away their company..." It's no different than making it Chademo or SAE capable...

I don't see how anyone would put multiple L3 options on the car.

Anyway, Musk wants those companies to invest in his charging network, which would further help Tesla sell cars. He would own the network and if the network gets really sizeable (and when EVs are a big % of the total sales), they would be at his mercy. You don't want a critical component of your products to have an eternal dependence on a competitor.

It would be like Google agreeing to use Apple store for their mobile OS early on.

 

[pkulak]

That seems inconsistent with Tesla refusing to offer fast charging on their canceled 40 kWh ModelS. Tesla is the industry leader in fast charging capability. It is up to them to offer the feature or not and they shouldn't build cars that don't offer fast charging... And when they do leave out this critical feature, it is a black eye for the EV business and creates a bad reputation that confirms that Ev's are not practical and inconvenient.

Tesla does offer Supercharging on the 40 kWh Model S. It costs $12,000 and includes an upgrade to a 60 kWh battery. They weren't planning on including Supercharging on the 40 kWh, but when they cancelled it and decided to ship the existing orders as software limited 60 kWh batteries, they included all the hardware and it is just a switch in software that has to be flipped to enable it.

Companies _always_ hamstring their lowest model because they want to advertise the price, but they don't want anyone to actually buy the thing. Think Nissan is saving boat loads of money by not having cruise control on the S?

 

[pkulak]

I am surprised that no one has reverse engineered this and flipped the switch... Perhaps there are so few 40Kwh cars that there is no interest...

They weren't planning on including Supercharging on the 40 kWh, but when they cancelled it and decided to ship the existing orders as software limited 60 kWh batteries, they included all the hardware and it is just a switch in software that has to be flipped to enable it.

It's probably a switch at Tesla, not your car. IE: you'd have to fake a VIN.

 

[evnow]

Think Nissan is saving boat loads of money by not having cruise control on the S?

For 2015, S will have CC, apparently.

BTW, I was surprised so many wanted CC. Wouldn't be a deal breaker for me (though not having telematics is).

 

[abasile]

That seems inconsistent with Tesla refusing to offer fast charging on their canceled 40 kWh ModelS. Tesla is the industry leader in fast charging capability. It is up to them to offer the feature or not and they shouldn't build cars that don't offer fast charging... And when they do leave out this critical feature, it is a black eye for the EV business and creates a bad reputation that confirms that Ev's are not practical and inconvenient.

Tesla does offer Supercharging on the 40 kWh Model S. It costs $12,000 and includes an upgrade to a 60 kWh battery. They weren't planning on including Supercharging on the 40 kWh, but when they cancelled it and decided to ship the existing orders as software limited 60 kWh batteries, they included all the hardware and it is just a switch in software that has to be flipped to enable it.

Not offering Supercharging on the 40 kWh Model S was a sound decision, IMHO, that relieves Tesla of the need to build a denser Supercharging network. The 40 kWh model doesn't have enough range to comfortably drive from SC to SC in many, many cases. Even the 60 kWh model has to be driven with great care to bridge some gaps.

If Tesla wants to allow other manufacturers to use the SC network with smaller-battery cars, that seems fine as long as those other manufacturers are willing to build out the additional network capacity needed. Very few folks want to take road trips that require stopping for a charge every 50 miles, but regional EV driving could be much more pleasant if today's one-off, scattered CHAdeMO units were abandoned in favor of more accessible, available, and reliable banks of Superchargers.

 

[TomT]

It's going to be sometime before any other EVS have the range to make practical use of the Telsa Network anyway so it is mostly moot for the foreseeable future... And adapters could easily handle the different formats just as Tesla is doing for their cars if the manufactures did not want to build it in...

Anyway, Musk wants those companies to invest in his charging network, which would further help Tesla sell cars. He would own the network and if the network gets really sizeable (and when EVs are a big % of the total sales), they would be at his mercy. You don't want a critical component of your products to have an eternal dependence on a competitor.

 

[evnow]

...but regional EV driving could be much more pleasant if today's one-off, scattered CHAdeMO units were abandoned in favor of more accessible, available, and reliable banks of Superchargers.

Hmmm ... depends on the region. There are more CHAdeMO around here than all chargers in Tesla network in the entire country. That is the reason Tesla owners from PNW lobbied so much to get CHAdeMO adopters.

BTW, it seems strange to me people actually don't understand the threat of having one company control something as important as QC network. Even if we assume Musk does everything in the best interest of humanity (LOL!), the next CEO of Tesla would use the monopoly for profiteering.

 

[evnow]

It's going to be sometime before any other EVS have the range to make practical use of the Telsa Network anyway so it is mostly moot for the foreseeable future... And adapters could easily handle the different formats just as Tesla is doing for their cars if the manufactures did not want to build it in...

Actually if Leaf can use Superchargers, we could use some around here.

BTW, you can't even think of a long range EV by a competitor even for the "for the foreseeable future" ? I bet, there will be other long range EVs by the time Tesla Gen 3 comes out.

 

[TomT]

But they are still all scattered willy-nilly with no real rhyme or reason, whereas Tesla's network is being intelligently arrayed.

There are more CHAdeMO around here than all chargers in Tesla network in the entire country.

 

[TomT]

I'll take that bet. Long range to me is 200 miles or more, BTW...

BTW, you can't even think of a long range EV by a competitor even for the "for the foreseeable future" ? I bet, there will be other long range EVs by the time Tesla Gen 3 comes out.

 

[pkulak]

Anyway, the uncooled and temperature-sensitive LEAF battery is notably unsuitable for Supercharging. If Nissan were to sign on to the Tesla Supercharger network it would need to radically redesign the battery packs in the cars or even adopt Tesla packs. I consider that very unlikely for the foreseeable future. More likely would be another manufacturer that wants to dip its toes in the EV market and sees adopting Tesla technology as an easy way to do that.

What now? Leafs routinely charge at 2C (for parts of the charge). The chemistry that Nissan used has much less internal resistance than the cobalt batteries that Tesla uses. I don't think Tesla ever charges their cars at more than 1.5C, even with all the fancy liquid cooling.

 

[TomT]

If you are only doing one or perhaps at most two QCs in a day, that may be true. More than that and the heat builds up fast without TMS.

What now? Leafs routinely charge at 2C (for parts of the charge). The chemistry that Nissan used has much less internal resistance than the cobalt batteries that Tesla uses. I don't think Tesla ever charges their cars at more than 1.5C, even with all the fancy liquid cooling.

 

[pkulak]

If you are only doing one or perhaps at most two QCs in a day, that may be true. More than that and the heat builds up fast without TMS.

What now? Leafs routinely charge at 2C (for parts of the charge). The chemistry that Nissan used has much less internal resistance than the cobalt batteries that Tesla uses. I don't think Tesla ever charges their cars at more than 1.5C, even with all the fancy liquid cooling.

Sure, but since a Leaf can actually charge _faster_ than a Model S, it seems a bit disingenuous to suggest that it's not suitable for fast charging. Lower (far lower, actually) internal resistance is one of the benefits of using NMC vs LCO.

 

[TomT]

It's perfectly suitable but with caveats. The net affect is what truly matters and after a couple of QCs a day, the Tesla battery will still be cool while the Leaf battery will be a hot tamale! The Leaf battery has lower resistance but many other issues that are far more significant (such as degradation, energy density, etc.)... I personally prefer the Tesla path.

Sure, but since a Leaf can actually charge _faster_ than a Model S, it seems a bit disingenuous to suggest that it's not suitable for fast charging. Lower (far lower, actually) internal resistance is one of the benefits of using NMC vs LCO.

 

[Zythryn]

Faster by percentage, sure.
By miles/minute, no the Leaf is not capable of charging faster.
A 85kWh on a new supercharger should charge 75 miles in about 15 minutes.