EdmondLeaf
Well-known member
I know all that, and do not believe it will change, but I stress again I wish it will be that simple.
Stanton said:I believe that NOT "pushing" the car those few weeks a year (at least where I live) when it's excessively hot has/will help it in the long run. That doesn't mean it sits unused in my garage; that means I try to keep it cool when I charge at night in my garage, I don't "opportunity charge" during the day, and I make an effort to park in the shade.
LEAFguy said:Not likely. Look for it's first exhibition to be at the Detroit show next week.cwerdna said:Awesome. Sorry to go OT, but will the '13 Leaf be on display at the San Jose (Silicon Valley) Auto Show at http://www.motortrendautoshows.com/sanjose" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;?
leafkabob said:I think they did listen and show concern. They just don't have anything to offer that was satisfying. They think the new warranty should do it. I think most AZ 2011/2012 purchasers don't agree.
surfingslovak said:If I recall correctly, Andy insinuated that the battery chemistry has been tweaked, which was at least partially motivated by the issues owners have encountered. Can't really comment on electrolyte color ;-)Stoaty said:Not so much interested in tech data as in the functional significance of the "slightly different chemistry". Why is the chemistry different for U.S.? More heat tolerant? Slightly higher capacity? Red, white and blue colors for the electrolyte?
mwalsh said:Call me an old skeptic. But while meeting with Phoenix owners and listening to their concerns may have been on the agenda, I think the primary reason for the event was to release details of the 2013 LEAF. No coincidence, methinks, that it was decided to advance release to the press too, a couple of weeks ahead of scheduled. Reason? Well just check the web - gazillions of posts about the 2013 specs and just 2 (that I've found) about the meeting with Phoenix owners (which would have been a big-deal normally). Well played, Nissan.
myleaf said:It was mentioned that the LEAF battery is air cooled -- similar to liquid cooling. An example mentioned is that the human body is air cooled.
JPWhite said:Stanton said:I believe that NOT "pushing" the car those few weeks a year (at least where I live) when it's excessively hot has/will help it in the long run. That doesn't mean it sits unused in my garage; that means I try to keep it cool when I charge at night in my garage, I don't "opportunity charge" during the day, and I make an effort to park in the shade.
That was pretty much my strategy as well, even though Nashville heat doesn't normally get too hot. 2012 was an exception, I recorded 107 at my house.
To be fair to Andy, he wasn't using the analogy to compare how the leaf's battery is cooled. He simply mentioned it as an example of one of the methods involving air cooling. He almost said it as an afterthought.TomT said:A bad analogy as the human body is both air and evaporative cooled, and has an active temperature management system... The Leaf battery is none of these and unlike the human body, not directly in contact with the ambient air or airflow by vurtue of being sealed inside a case with minimum heat transfer.
myleaf said:It was mentioned that the LEAF battery is air cooled -- similar to liquid cooling. An example mentioned is that the human body is air cooled.
I was half joking when I said that. His recent remarks did give me pause, but I don't really regret letting the car go. If it turns out my car wasn't as degraded as I thought, it isn't like I can't get another one, after all of this has been sorted out. If it is as degraded as I thought, and Phil's speculations don't pan out, then I won't have to worry about the car.Volusiano said:Leafkabob said he just returned his car via a buyback yesterday and now he wondered if he did the right thing in light of Phil's technical opinion on this matter because everybody has great respect for Phil's technical savy on everything EV and LEAF related.
I'll try not to put words in their mouths, but the owners of that Model S (and Roadster) are regular members of - and contributors to - the Phoenix Electric Auto Association and overall great EV ambassadors. They go above and beyond the call of duty, speaking at group and public events and showing of their vehicles regularly. I am appreciative of their presence at the town hall and I don't feel that their (mild) grilling of the Nissan executives was out of place. Their disappointment in Nissan's response (or lack thereof) to this 9-month saga is shared by numerous LEAF owners, past and present. I guarantee those executives anticipated tough questions and possibly even hostile LEAF owners, and overall I'd say they probably felt that the event was easier than they expected. They get compensated quite well and can afford to take a tough question or two.ERG4ALL said:I was a little puzzled why a guy with a Tesla would show up and then try to embarrass Andy by suggesting that he should have leased a LEAF from Enterprise instead of the Infinity that he did lease. If the guy was trying to somehow make points for Tesla, he is out in space. The two vehicles are for entirely different market segments and I would have preferred that the time be spent on constructive topics about the LEAF.
+1 on the part that I would have preferred that the time be spent on LEAF topics, too. There were many people who raised their hands (me included) who didn't get a chance to speak because this guy wasted time asking an irrelevant question in a time-limited event.ERG4ALL said:I was a little puzzled why a guy with a Tesla would show up and then try to embarrass Andy by suggesting that he should have leased a LEAF from Enterprise instead of the Infinity that he did lease. If the guy was trying to somehow make points for Tesla, he is out in space. The two vehicles are for entirely different market segments and I would have preferred that the time be spent on constructive topics about the LEAF.
This is pretty remarkable hearing about a 2011 LEAF in Phoenix with 20K miles and still retaining all 12 capacity bars. I notice that your location indicates Phoenix/Show Low, so I gotta ask, do you have your LEAF spend most of its summer time in Phoenix or in Show Low? If in Show Low, then it'd make a lot of sense because of the high elevation and therefore much cooler climate there in the summer.ERG4ALL said:We have a 2011 (#404) LEAF with over 20,000 miles and all 12 capacity bars showing. Our usage may not be typical, but it works well for an EV like the LEAF.
Volusiano said:This is pretty remarkable hearing about a 2011 LEAF in Phoenix with 20K miles and still retaining all 12 capacity bars. I notice that your location indicates Phoenix/Show Low, so I gotta ask, do you have your LEAF spend most of its summer time in Phoenix or in Show Low? If in Show Low, then it'd make a lot of sense because of the high elevation and therefore much cooler climate there in the summer.ERG4ALL said:We have a 2011 (#404) LEAF with over 20,000 miles and all 12 capacity bars showing. Our usage may not be typical, but it works well for an EV like the LEAF.
But if your LEAF spends its summer time in Phoenix, then I gotta ask you what's your secret to keeping all 12 bar so far? Maybe you can teach us Phoenix owners (and even Nissan) a thing or two about how your manage to retain all 12 bars in Phoenix.
You said your usage may not be typical. Can you elaborate on it? Thanks.
leafkabob said:I expected the video of the meeting to be posted by this morning. Since it hasn't been, I'm guessing that the lawyers are having some heartburn about posting it unedited. So in the absence of the video, and at the risk of having my faulty memory exposed if the video is later posted, I offer the following:
My overall sense of the meeting is that most of the audience was primarily interested in the battery degradation problem and in the end weren't satisfied with what they heard. At least a couple of people reported being at 8 bars and were very concerned about their range. Other folks had more bars but were equally concerned about their range.
My take on the meeting is that:
1. Nissan thinks it has solved the battery issue by coming out with this warranty.
2. Nissan has no intention (at this point at least) of going to a fluid cooling system for the battery. When more than one person suggested that such a system would solve the problem, Andy was pretty clear in stating that "there are many ways to dissipate heat, and fluid is only one of them." He really doesn't think it is the way to go. He also said they have no "Dubai Leaf," or any plans for a "desert version."
I think that Nissan really has no solution to the battery problem, isn't really interested in the AZ/hot climate market, and thinks that hot climate folks should be happy to have a leaf last 6-7 years (this assumes a one-time bump during the warranty period, followed by a drop back down to 8-9 bars by year 6 or 7.
Anyway, in my opinion the frustration/disappointment on the audience's part was palpable.
In spite of all of that, I was encouraged by the meeting. I believe Andy is sincere and felt he was honest with his responses. It would have been pretty easy to avoid coming to Phoenix or to have someone else do it instead. Billy and Jeff also struck me as sincere and genuinely interested in resolving our issues. Unfortunately I just don't think they really get what our issue is.
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