Meeting with Nissan, Phoenix, Jan 8, 2013, 6pm, drinks prior

[EdmondLeaf]

I know all that, and do not believe it will change, but I stress again I wish it will be that simple.

 

[JPWhite]

I believe that NOT "pushing" the car those few weeks a year (at least where I live) when it's excessively hot has/will help it in the long run. That doesn't mean it sits unused in my garage; that means I try to keep it cool when I charge at night in my garage, I don't "opportunity charge" during the day, and I make an effort to park in the shade.

That was pretty much my strategy as well, even though Nashville heat doesn't normally get too hot. 2012 was an exception, I recorded 107 at my house.

 

[TomT]

Surprisingly, there was one that showed up unofficially at CES in Vegas on Thursday... And a ton of Cmax Energis all week that were also available for drives...

Awesome. Sorry to go OT, but will the '13 Leaf be on display at the San Jose (Silicon Valley) Auto Show at http://www.motortrendautoshows.com/sanjose" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;?

Not likely. Look for it's first exhibition to be at the Detroit show next week.

 

[TomT]

I think a large number of ALL Leaf owners don't agree...

I think they did listen and show concern. They just don't have anything to offer that was satisfying. They think the new warranty should do it. I think most AZ 2011/2012 purchasers don't agree.

 

[TomT]

It also could be something as innocuous as U.S. or Japanese EPA requirements...

Not so much interested in tech data as in the functional significance of the "slightly different chemistry". Why is the chemistry different for U.S.? More heat tolerant? Slightly higher capacity? Red, white and blue colors for the electrolyte?

If I recall correctly, Andy insinuated that the battery chemistry has been tweaked, which was at least partially motivated by the issues owners have encountered. Can't really comment on electrolyte color ;-)

 

[TomT]

+10!

Call me an old skeptic. But while meeting with Phoenix owners and listening to their concerns may have been on the agenda, I think the primary reason for the event was to release details of the 2013 LEAF. No coincidence, methinks, that it was decided to advance release to the press too, a couple of weeks ahead of scheduled. Reason? Well just check the web - gazillions of posts about the 2013 specs and just 2 (that I've found) about the meeting with Phoenix owners (which would have been a big-deal normally). Well played, Nissan.

 

[TomT]

A bad analogy as the human body is both air and evaporative cooled, and has an active temperature management system... The Leaf battery is none of these and unlike the human body, not directly in contact with the ambient air or airflow by vurtue of being sealed inside a case with minimum heat transfer.

It was mentioned that the LEAF battery is air cooled -- similar to liquid cooling. An example mentioned is that the human body is air cooled.

 

[JeremyW]

I'm way late to the reaction part of this thread. Haven't had a chance to read it all. I was fortunate to be able to get two days off at the expense of the rest of the week. On top of it my sinuses have been killing me all week, although I'm almost 100% now.

I had quite the journey to get there: 140 miles in the leaf (two quick charges) then a hour and half plane flight with Surfingslovak. Thank you to Mason and Andrea for letting me crash on the couch.

It was great to finally meet some of the most die-hard ev owners I have ever met. I commend Nissan for having the event. It was great to hear some of the reasoning behind their decisions and I think they were able to understand the market a little better. the I personally think they are making a bad decision when it comes to TMS for hot climates. They think they can solve it in chemistry, and while I agree, I think we are a few years away from that. Even this crummy new warranty will cost them a lot of packs.

I think most of these leafs will be migrating to cooler climates in a few years unless an aftermarket battery comes along.

Asked about Leaf to home, they did an informal pole to gauge interest. They were pleasantly surprised. I don't think it'll be coming here soon though, last thing Nissan would want to do is have the Phoenix batteries cycling more.

A few asked Nissan to come back in the summer, and someone said July 31st. That's my birthday, what better way to spend it then watch Nissan squirm again? :lol:

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

We hope 2012 was an exception when it smashed high temp records, but there is a lot of anecdotal evidence that temps much lower is still pretty affective

I believe that NOT "pushing" the car those few weeks a year (at least where I live) when it's excessively hot has/will help it in the long run. That doesn't mean it sits unused in my garage; that means I try to keep it cool when I charge at night in my garage, I don't "opportunity charge" during the day, and I make an effort to park in the shade.

That was pretty much my strategy as well, even though Nashville heat doesn't normally get too hot. 2012 was an exception, I recorded 107 at my house.

 

[leafkabob]

A bad analogy as the human body is both air and evaporative cooled, and has an active temperature management system... The Leaf battery is none of these and unlike the human body, not directly in contact with the ambient air or airflow by vurtue of being sealed inside a case with minimum heat transfer.

It was mentioned that the LEAF battery is air cooled -- similar to liquid cooling. An example mentioned is that the human body is air cooled.

To be fair to Andy, he wasn't using the analogy to compare how the leaf's battery is cooled. He simply mentioned it as an example of one of the methods involving air cooling. He almost said it as an afterthought.

 

[leafkabob]

Leafkabob said he just returned his car via a buyback yesterday and now he wondered if he did the right thing in light of Phil's technical opinion on this matter because everybody has great respect for Phil's technical savy on everything EV and LEAF related.

I was half joking when I said that. His recent remarks did give me pause, but I don't really regret letting the car go. If it turns out my car wasn't as degraded as I thought, it isn't like I can't get another one, after all of this has been sorted out. If it is as degraded as I thought, and Phil's speculations don't pan out, then I won't have to worry about the car.

 

[ERG4ALL]

I would like to thank Nissan for the "town hall" meeting. I enjoyed looking at the 2013 LEAF and seeing the many improvements. The warranty on the whole may not be what everyone who has the heat problem would like, but it does at least provide a safety net for a period of time. It still seems that leasing is the way to go. We have a 2011 (#404) LEAF with over 20,000 miles and all 12 capacity bars showing. Our usage may not be typical, but it works well for an EV like the LEAF.

I was a little puzzled why a guy with a Tesla would show up and then try to embarrass Andy by suggesting that he should have leased a LEAF from Enterprise instead of the Infinity that he did lease. If the guy was trying to somehow make points for Tesla, he is out in space. The two vehicles are for entirely different market segments and I would have preferred that the time be spent on constructive topics about the LEAF.

 

[opossum]

I was a little puzzled why a guy with a Tesla would show up and then try to embarrass Andy by suggesting that he should have leased a LEAF from Enterprise instead of the Infinity that he did lease. If the guy was trying to somehow make points for Tesla, he is out in space. The two vehicles are for entirely different market segments and I would have preferred that the time be spent on constructive topics about the LEAF.

I'll try not to put words in their mouths, but the owners of that Model S (and Roadster) are regular members of - and contributors to - the Phoenix Electric Auto Association and overall great EV ambassadors. They go above and beyond the call of duty, speaking at group and public events and showing of their vehicles regularly. I am appreciative of their presence at the town hall and I don't feel that their (mild) grilling of the Nissan executives was out of place. Their disappointment in Nissan's response (or lack thereof) to this 9-month saga is shared by numerous LEAF owners, past and present. I guarantee those executives anticipated tough questions and possibly even hostile LEAF owners, and overall I'd say they probably felt that the event was easier than they expected. They get compensated quite well and can afford to take a tough question or two.

 

[Volusiano]

I was a little puzzled why a guy with a Tesla would show up and then try to embarrass Andy by suggesting that he should have leased a LEAF from Enterprise instead of the Infinity that he did lease. If the guy was trying to somehow make points for Tesla, he is out in space. The two vehicles are for entirely different market segments and I would have preferred that the time be spent on constructive topics about the LEAF.

+1 on the part that I would have preferred that the time be spent on LEAF topics, too. There were many people who raised their hands (me included) who didn't get a chance to speak because this guy wasted time asking an irrelevant question in a time-limited event.

 

[Volusiano]

We have a 2011 (#404) LEAF with over 20,000 miles and all 12 capacity bars showing. Our usage may not be typical, but it works well for an EV like the LEAF.

This is pretty remarkable hearing about a 2011 LEAF in Phoenix with 20K miles and still retaining all 12 capacity bars. I notice that your location indicates Phoenix/Show Low, so I gotta ask, do you have your LEAF spend most of its summer time in Phoenix or in Show Low? If in Show Low, then it'd make a lot of sense because of the high elevation and therefore much cooler climate there in the summer.

But if your LEAF spends its summer time in Phoenix, then I gotta ask you what's your secret to keeping all 12 bar so far? Maybe you can teach us Phoenix owners (and even Nissan) a thing or two about how your manage to retain all 12 bars in Phoenix.

You said your usage may not be typical. Can you elaborate on it? Thanks.

 

[TickTock]

Be interesting what happens to it after they roll out the s/w update Andy spoke of to improve the guage accuracy.

 

[LEAFfan]

We have a 2011 (#404) LEAF with over 20,000 miles and all 12 capacity bars showing. Our usage may not be typical, but it works well for an EV like the LEAF.

This is pretty remarkable hearing about a 2011 LEAF in Phoenix with 20K miles and still retaining all 12 capacity bars. I notice that your location indicates Phoenix/Show Low, so I gotta ask, do you have your LEAF spend most of its summer time in Phoenix or in Show Low? If in Show Low, then it'd make a lot of sense because of the high elevation and therefore much cooler climate there in the summer.

But if your LEAF spends its summer time in Phoenix, then I gotta ask you what's your secret to keeping all 12 bar so far? Maybe you can teach us Phoenix owners (and even Nissan) a thing or two about how your manage to retain all 12 bars in Phoenix.

You said your usage may not be typical. Can you elaborate on it? Thanks.

If I remember correctly, he lives in Show Low, but bought in Phoenix. Since the car is up there, it explains the 12 CBs.

 

[SilverLeaf]

I'd also like to thank the team from Nissan and Chelsea, et al for organizing and hosting this event.

I'd also like to point out the my question, regarding the accessory battery was tabled for further research. We were assured we would have that battery question addressed, as well.

The question was how will we know when the accessory battery is degrading to a point where it will be unable to start the LEAF? What will be the warning sign? How many months into ownership should the accessory battery be reliable.

The question is relevant as a conventional vehicle battery has a useful life of 24 - 30 months here in Phoenix. Hard cranking is the warning sign for the last 2 or 3 starts.

I'd like to avoid a dead LEAF due to a dead accessory battery, if I know proactively when to replace it.

BTW - my LEAF has 10k miles, 11 bars and approximately 75% range after 20 months.

 

[jlsoaz]

I expected the video of the meeting to be posted by this morning. Since it hasn't been, I'm guessing that the lawyers are having some heartburn about posting it unedited. So in the absence of the video, and at the risk of having my faulty memory exposed if the video is later posted, I offer the following:
My overall sense of the meeting is that most of the audience was primarily interested in the battery degradation problem and in the end weren't satisfied with what they heard. At least a couple of people reported being at 8 bars and were very concerned about their range. Other folks had more bars but were equally concerned about their range.

My take on the meeting is that:
1. Nissan thinks it has solved the battery issue by coming out with this warranty.
2. Nissan has no intention (at this point at least) of going to a fluid cooling system for the battery. When more than one person suggested that such a system would solve the problem, Andy was pretty clear in stating that "there are many ways to dissipate heat, and fluid is only one of them." He really doesn't think it is the way to go. He also said they have no "Dubai Leaf," or any plans for a "desert version."

I think that Nissan really has no solution to the battery problem, isn't really interested in the AZ/hot climate market, and thinks that hot climate folks should be happy to have a leaf last 6-7 years (this assumes a one-time bump during the warranty period, followed by a drop back down to 8-9 bars by year 6 or 7.

Anyway, in my opinion the frustration/disappointment on the audience's part was palpable.

In spite of all of that, I was encouraged by the meeting. I believe Andy is sincere and felt he was honest with his responses. It would have been pretty easy to avoid coming to Phoenix or to have someone else do it instead. Billy and Jeff also struck me as sincere and genuinely interested in resolving our issues. Unfortunately I just don't think they really get what our issue is.

I think you provided a good summary. I wanted to belatedly jot down a few additional thoughts, and circumstances and laziness keep getting in the way. At the risk of repeating what others have said, and I have not yet had the time to read past this point in the thread, to list some points:

Another detail of the beat-it-somewhat-to-death range degradation issue discussion that I think is worth bringing out is that while more than one driver present may have had 8 bars or less, the people who are in bigger trouble are the ones who don't have enough bars missing to qualify for the warranty, but who report sufficient range degradation that they think (and I agree) Nissan should do something. So, a considerable amount of time was spent trying to get across to Nissan execs that drivers are not focused on bars, they are focused on the reality of what range they have lost. [Note I have not lost any bars or perceived range, in only about 1300 miles so far, and did not ask any questions directly during the Town Hall session.] One of the last people to speak said (if memory serves) that he has lost only two bars, but went into some detail about range that he has lost (which he measured by odometer from the start he said). I think he left the meeting more or less shaking his head and concluding that he would no longer be able to remain a Leaf customer.

Resale value: At least one person did bring up the resale value issue, and they spoke well, but if I had to put my finger on hits and misses in terms of where questioners might have brought something home, I think this was only a partial hit in that maybe it could have used more questioners. I'm not sure that the Nissan execs fully are acknowledging and understanding that at this point few if any would pay a lot of money for a used Phoenix Nissan Leaf that has not either had its pack completely replaced or had such strong battery pack partial replacement that confidence can be had in the next few years. Even at that, I think roughly the same devaluation could be expected in a few years, so I think blue book on used Phoenix Leafs is likely to be low unless I'm not understanding something.... and those who bought, rather than leased, may be out of luck on their real-world financial loss?

At the end Jim Stack made a few smart points for affordable do-able improvements. One of them was to utilize the energy from the solar panel to drive a fan to keep the battery cool. Andy indicated taking notes on this and that's ok, but it was also a bit disconcerting I thought since hasn't Nissan been generally resistant to any active cooling including fans?

Andy at some point indicated/clarified that his background was as a Thermodynamic engineer .... something to do with HVAC? This was in conjunction with his repeated theme of there being different ways too cool and Nissan would not be looking at liquid cooling (due I think to safety, complexity, weight, also cost?).

Andy put his foot in it once or twice, as might be expected from anyone taking the risk of putting themselves into a Town Hall forum situation (so I don't "blame" him for it, just noting it).. When talking about engineering for cooling for example, to illustrate different methods of cooling he discussed how for the human body one could take a [cold] shower, or subject the body to air conditioning. Unfortunately it seemed from the way he put it that he did not fully understand that air in Phoenix on a hot day is not as useful as "air conditioning" for cooling a hot battery. One person brought this home very well in discussing the heat of the pavement on a hot day.

At the beginning of the meeting it was remarked that Andy had never before been to Phoenix.

I do think both sides deserve strong credit.... the NIssan executives for taking the Town Hall step (and Chelsea for her part in this) and the Leaf drivers not only for articulating their points and taking the time (it was a grueling 3 hours if one counts pre-time and post-time), but also for basically staying above-board and focused on rational comments and questions even though at times they were in effect being met in some cases with answers that would hurt their wallets and would negatively impact their ability to stay in a Leaf.

Ok, these were some jotted down notes from earlier-in-the-week memory, sorry if this is boring or redundant with what has already been written, or maybe the video has already been posted somewhere, but there had been some statements asking for more info and I'm not sure how much others have yet posted.

 

[mwalsh]

Well now the bloom is off the 2013 rose, I'm starting to see more reported on the "nuts" of the AZ meeting. So Nissan may have won the battle, but owners seem to be ahead when it comes to the war.