March 2013 Nissan battery pack replacement survey.

[DaveinOlyWA]

I think I'd rather see longer term leases maybe 4-5 years at a lower price that guarantees 80% capacity or more during the lease period

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

I said "lease", so did not see the additional questions. However, in response to several metioning the trade-in value: IMHO ... for the purposes of the survey only -- to simplify it -- I believe they "baked in" the trade-in value and assumed you will turn it in. With this simplification any $ discussion is intended to refer to your out-of-pocket cost.

if you said lease then you had to lie and say you were planning to buy out lease for more questions which is what i did

 

[kolmstead]

I expect my LEAF to reach end of usable battery life (for me) next winter. It's going to lose second capacity bar as soon as temps get over 90 here, and another bar just before things cool off in the fall. Probably won't hit Nissan's 4-bar loss battery capacity warranty trigger until 2014. Or maybe not, since I won't be able to drive the car to work by then. I voted for cheap replacement... $2K. My car will need a new battery every three years, so cheaper is better. I got a chuckle out of the question about what price would make me think that the battery was of poor quality. I'd be thrilled with a free battery replacement!

Things probably look differently if you don't think you'll need battery replacement. I'm not going to put $5K or $10K in the car every three years. Leasing the replacement battery might be acceptable, but I'd probably just take the voucher and run. Too bad it has to be for a Nissan product...

Karl

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

I expect my LEAF to reach end of usable battery life (for me) next winter. It's going to lose second capacity bar as soon as temps get over 90 here, and another bar just before things cool off in the fall. Probably won't hit Nissan's 4-bar loss battery capacity warranty trigger until 2014. Or maybe not, since I won't be able to drive the car to work by then. I voted for cheap replacement... $2K. My car will need a new battery every three years, so cheaper is better. I got a chuckle out of the question about what price would make me think that the battery was of poor quality. I'd be thrilled with a free battery replacement!

Things probably look differently if you don't think you'll need battery replacement. I'm not going to put $5K or $10K in the car every three years. Leasing the replacement battery might be acceptable, but I'd probably just take the voucher and run. Too bad it has to be for a Nissan product...

Karl

ya, i was "reasonable" saying $10 ok, $9 too cheap!

 

[Stanton]

Since I purchased my Leaf--and definitely want to keep it as long as possible--I got the (long) version. My answers were similar to what others have said ($2k too "cheap", $10k too much, and $4k acceptable), but I wonder why no mention was made of an INCREASE in capacity? We all know that it will be technically possible to fit MORE energy into the same size modules 4/5/6 years down the road, but Nissan specifically referenced a 24kWh battery pack. Did they not want to muddy the data at this time? I think they're missing an upgrade opportunity given their investment in this EV platform; I would certainly be interested in a capacity upgrade (and be willing to pay for it when the time is right).

 

[TaylorSFGuy]

I have been pushing for information on replacement cost yet Nissan hasn't sent me the survey yet. Maybe they already know how I feel. I have no intention of spending the money that I've saved by not burning gas on another battery so I can continue to put myself through cold winters just so I can turn around and do it again a couple of years later. 70k miles so far. On track to exceed 75k at 2 years.
When the time comes for a new battery I'll put the battery cost down on a house closer to work or a new car. There is no way I'm going to put thousands more into a used car that only has a usable life of probably 3 years. That is like rebuilding the engine every 3 years even if the cost is . What person in their right mind would do that multiple times?

 

[Randy3]

I haven't received the survey and, barring my winning the lottery, I plan to keep my LEAF for several more years. (Winning lottery = order Tesla!)

It sounds like we're not exactly sure if they're talking about a new pack or a reconditioned one. Also, we're not sure if they're including returning the old pack. This makes a huge difference in the pricing paradigm to me. What if they could train local dealership techs to drop and open the pack, then diagnose which modules need work? By fixing just those modules, a price point of $2,000 seems reasonable. Maybe even less cost would makes sense. (Of course, I don't know if that fix is possible.)

Like many of us, I have a solar array on my roof. I would pay more to keep my old pack if I could figure out how to make use of it with my solar. I would pay less if they wanted my old pack.

I don't especially like the idea of leasing a battery or paying a separate warranty charge for the battery. At $30 per month and my current driving habits of 710 miles per month, I'd be paying about 4 cents per mile for this peace of mind. Maybe if they charged based on miles driven?

Finally, I'd be very interested in a pack upgrade when battery technology improves to the point that I could get a real 150 miles (freeway). That would be worth paying $5,000-$6,000. Keeping the same maximum pack capacity is not worth more than $2,000 or so, especially if they take my old pack.

Maybe I'm just cheap!~

 

[LEAFer]

Regarding techs fixing/replacing individual modules: This will be a rare scenario, and would be covered under the longer-term warranty, because in effect a module (or two) went "bad". However, range degradation will most likely affect ALL modules approximately equally -- they are "wired" (and used) in parallel. As the battery degrades due to use (cycling and calendar time) each module loses a little capacity over time. Thus the entire battery would need to be replaced. It's up to the user (driver) how much range degradation is still acceptable before deciding to request (and pay for) a replacement pack.

 

[KJD]

I have been pushing for information on replacement cost yet Nissan hasn't sent me the survey yet. Maybe they already know how I feel. I have no intention of spending the money that I've saved by not burning gas on another battery so I can continue to put myself through cold winters just so I can turn around and do it again a couple of years later. 70k miles so far. On track to exceed 75k at 2 years.
When the time comes for a new battery I'll put the battery cost down on a house closer to work or a new car. There is no way I'm going to put thousands more into a used car that only has a usable life of probably 3 years. That is like rebuilding the engine every 3 years even if the cost is . What person in their right mind would do that multiple times?

This is why Nissan needs to look at Tesla type options. The perfect system in my view would be this.
Model S = Low cost 24kwh pack
Model SV = Medium cost 30kwh pack
Model SL = Higher cost 36kwh pack

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

Wont see an increas in capacity is my guess. Gonna have tobuy another car for that.

Might get lucky and get something aftermarketbutthen u run the normal aftermarket risks

Just too much against a company
s future revenus sfream

Since I purchased my Leaf--and definitely want to keep it as long as possible--I got the (long) version. My answers were similar to what others have said ($2k too "cheap", $10k too much, and $4k acceptable), but I wonder why no mention was made of an INCREASE in capacity? We all know that it will be technically possible to fit MORE energy into the same size modules 4/5/6 years down the road, but Nissan specifically referenced a 24kWh battery pack. Did they not want to muddy the data at this time? I think they're missing an upgrade opportunity given their investment in this EV platform; I would certainly be interested in a capacity upgrade (and be willing to pay for it when the time is right).

 

[Stoaty]

70k miles so far. On track to exceed 75k at 2 years.

Do you have a Gid count at full charge now? Last time I checked (October 30, 2012) the Battery Aging Model predicted 249 Gids for your Leaf on a full charge (4.5 miles per kwh, used Seattle as the city, 56,000 miles). At that time, you measured 248 Gids with a borrowed meter. I would be interested in seeing if the model is still accurate for your climate.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

What do u figure you saved in gas cost? Becauae i would not pay more than 50% of that savings for another battery. My preference is actually one third

$4000 is too much for anexchange price

I have been pushing for information on replacement cost yet Nissan hasn't sent me the survey yet. Maybe they already know how I feel. I have no intention of spending the money that I've saved by not burning gas on another battery so I can continue to put myself through cold winters just so I can turn around and do it again a couple of years later. 70k miles so far. On track to exceed 75k at 2 years.
When the time comes for a new battery I'll put the battery cost down on a house closer to work or a new car. There is no way I'm going to put thousands more into a used car that only has a usable life of probably 3 years. That is like rebuilding the engine every 3 years even if the cost is . What person in their right mind would do that multiple times?

 

[JimSouCal]

Well, I did the survey, and took notes as I went. As I own, and plan to hold the car for 10+ years, I was offered and completed the long form.

This demonstration that they, folks at Nissan, are looking over the situation, is a good thing. That said, my hope is they view the current LEAF customer base as valuable, and seek to maintain good will and with products and services that meet a large portion of expectations.

My own situation is particular--I view the LEAF as a daily driver primary car. The LEAF will meet my current mileage needs very well with a reduced capacity of up to 50%. I also have and plan to keep a "pleasure car" that will have extended range, and also will rent any time I need to do big hauling, like a 3 ton covered box truck with lift gate.

Perhaps a wishful crystal ball seems to indicate that battery technology at some point will become more a function of raw material costs and incremental costs per unit of manufacturing, with R+D more fully amortized; batteries should come down in price. Hopefully that can happen with standardization of modules.

As to the survey, several hypothetical situation were offered. As others mentioned, there is rental, lease, and purchase. All of my answers were on the ultra to very low side for pricing and reflect my personal needs of a low mileage driver.

Setting aside my particular situation, if one had a need for longer daily commutes, then I feel Nissan should be offering the possibility of upgrades and value added items as a part of the mix. And even though I would use it fairly rarely, if at the time of replacement, I could replace the current pack for a long range one that took me 150 highway miles or more on a charge, I very well might do it.

The more LEAFs that sell, the more likely clever 3rd parties can step up and offer value adds, but it is there for Nissan if they apply some out of the box thinking...

Yes, I'd also like to easily use my LEAF as a back up to home electricity, and be able to use the fast charge port for once, maybe even on a mass produced 60 or 100 amp model designed for personal residential or light business use.

Anyway, the survey took a fair amount of time--maybe I should have skipped it and done some exercise and stretching... But I did offer up that I have suggested the LEAF to others, and several have leased. I still love the car, and passing by gas stations, etc.

 

[Nubo]

but I wonder why no mention was made of an INCREASE in capacity? We all know that it will be technically possible to fit MORE energy into the same size modules 4/5/6 years down the road, but Nissan specifically referenced a 24kWh battery pack. Did they not want to muddy the data at this time? I think they're missing an upgrade opportunity given their investment in this EV platform; I would certainly be interested in a capacity upgrade (and be willing to pay for it when the time is right).

I had the same thoughts while taking the survey. I've always felt that a nice advantage of an EV would be the opportunity to replace an aging pack with one that actually made the car BETTER than new. Perhaps Nissan is not thinking along those lines.

 

[TaylorSFGuy]

I figure my charging costs are equivalent to 0.80 a gallon using 30 mpg. So saving 0.07 to 0.08 a mile is about $5000. No idea on gid number. Actually have been waiting for leaf scan but that doesn't seem to be coming in the immediate future. My 10 bars is still getting me 54 to 57 miles. Using qc at least one direction of commute and sometimes both. So I am not down 20 percent yet.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

it is not in Nissan's best interest to put larger batteries into old cars. if the technology advances enough, 3rd party options will spring up although I would have to assume not at the same pricing level Nissan could easily provide.

this is how you are encouraged to get a 2014 Nissan or a 2015 infiniti because it has the larger pack and whatnot. plus an integration of a pack with different voltages may not be that feasible price wise.

what is feasible is for Nissan to demonstrate a low long term TCO with great pricing on pack exchanges. keep in mind, trading in a pack with 70-80% capacity should not be thousands of dollars. $4000 for 25 % degraded works out to a $12,000 a pack which is more than the savings on gas. that pricing structure wont work today.

As I mentioned, my goal is one third of my gas savings. if we do a rough estimate of 7 cents per mile of savings which is very reachable by most using a 11 cents/kwh verses a VERY conservative 10.5 cents per mile which equates to 38 mpg at $4.00 gas which most would do worse.

over TaylorSF's 75,000 miles that would be $5250. now his driving needs are more extreme than most so his savings wont be as much since his LEAF becomes very inconvenient above 15% degradation so he might look at a 50% savings rule for a pack replacement at around $2600

but for me, my needs would be workable at 60 miles and expecting to not hit that wall until around 100,000 miles meaning I could save $7000 where my one third comes out just about the same at $2300

i like the directions the questionaire was going and i REALLY hope that Nissan realizes that "one size does not fit all"

i think they have enough resources (200,000 batteries a year opens up a LOT of options!) to provide several options because I dont see any one option working well enough to cover a majority of the needs here.

what they did not ask is how much I would pay monthly to insure pack at a minimum of 80% or even 90%. when the LEAF can do a real 100 miles ok then they should be able to make that fly but 70% on an 80 mile car? in a "10 months of Summer, 2 months of late Spring" climate, that might work but it wont here despite our lack of degradation. i may live in a .65 area or whatever but that does not compensate for the fact that I can lose 20 miles of range tomorrow morning

 

[LEAFfan]

I figure my charging costs are equivalent to 0.80 a gallon using 30 mpg. So saving 0.07 to 0.08 a mile is about $5000. No idea on gid number. Actually have been waiting for leaf scan but that doesn't seem to be coming in the immediate future. My 10 bars is still getting me 54 to 57 miles. Using qc at least one direction of commute and sometimes both. So I am not down 20 percent yet.

If you only have 10 CBs, I guarantee you have lost more than 20% capacity. According to Nissan, the top bar disappears at 15% and the second at 6.25%. However, using my BCM, I believe the first CB loss is close to or at 20%. The range backs up the meter reading.

 

[LEAFfan]

And since I still have 100% capacity after 2 years, I would imagine my leaf will be pretty darned old by the time the battery needs replacing.

Impossible. You may still have 12 capacity bars, meaning you have over 85% capacity, but you have definitely lost capacity... unless perhaps you kept the Leaf in dry ice and never drove it.

+1!

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

I figure my charging costs are equivalent to 0.80 a gallon using 30 mpg. So saving 0.07 to 0.08 a mile is about $5000. No idea on gid number. Actually have been waiting for leaf scan but that doesn't seem to be coming in the immediate future. My 10 bars is still getting me 54 to 57 miles. Using qc at least one direction of commute and sometimes both. So I am not down 20 percent yet.

you have lost two capacity bars? that is news! that leaves you at about 79% capacity, 76% usable. if you started with an 84 mile capacity then you should be at 63.84 miles minus the "winter penalty" means 54 miles if it rains, 57 if it doesnt.

i did a range test of sorts on Thurs? (Fri?) going from Lacey to Lake City. did 59 miles with about 58 freeway (topped of at Dept of Ecology) at 65 mph with cruise control and figured I had a range of 62 miles or so.

charged up at the Walgreens to full and came home at speeds varying from 56-58 mph and got home before LBW with range estimate of about 75 miles to turtle.

now morning test was like 27º afternoon was like 45 and I alway do better driving south than north but not that much better.

problem is now i have to drive farther FREQUENTLY (just lucky that Walgreens was my destination and had a charger) and what i used to laugh at during the Summer has become an issue during winter. if it doesnt rain, i am ok, but now I am losing 6-8 miles of range when it rains harder than a drizzle which is why the 70% Nissan has selected is too low. we may not have the degradation on a permanent basis but that does not make it any easier to get where we need to in Winter. I am ok with driving with no heat, it is simply not that cold. I have my heated jacket in the back seat, have used it twice in the last 2 months but already doing some trips at 55 mph and would be ok at 52-53 but no lower than that...

 

[TaylorSFGuy]

I have all bars. I have always used the distance I can go on first 10 bars coming off 100% charge as my baseline. At new 4.4 miles per kWh yielded 66 miles at 10 bars gone. Now at 4.4 I only get 57 miles at the best with a low of 54 on the same 10 bars. I like the way Dave has outlined his view and I agree in many respects with his points.