Leaf versus Tesla

[apvbguy]

I think this thread should be called "Leaf or Tesla". There is no 'vs' simply because they are so ... different.

It would have been easy to say Tesla wins hands down in specs...if money is no concern. It is sexy and gives excitement to EV.

Leaf on the other hand represents a not-so-flashy economical mass market solution to future transport. I believe that's the reason that so many root for it because of its humble backgrounds.

However, we badly need both audiences and I think we are just so lucky to have these 2 so-different companies committing to EV to break the oil-based transportation landscape.

after dancing with the tesla for awhile I chose a LEAF for the aforementioned reasons, after obtaining the LEAF a Tesla person called me and I informed him that I was no longer interested in the Tesla because I obtained a LEAF, his reaction was great and wise, he was thrilled that I got an EV and said he'd be there when and if I wanted to step up to their vehicle.
the point is not which is better, cooler or more costly, the point is that the "big sell" here is getting people to accept the EV concept.
So like the Tesla people I am happy when someone buys into the concept of ditching their ICE vehicle and gets an EV

 

[svanhoosen]

We just bought a 2013 Leaf SL a month ago. We've driven it 1600+ miles already, including two beach trips for 3 or 4 days each. We've been getting 90 to 95 miles range on average. At first I was a bit jealous of Teslas, with their 200 to 300 mile range (one of my co-workers has one), but now I see things differently. Sure, they can go further on a single charge, but EVs are limited on trips to the supporting charging infrastructure. I live in the Portland, OR area, and if you go to Plugshare and show Chademo DC quick chargers that Leafs use, you'll see that I can travel all the way North to Canada, or South to California, as I-5 has DCQC units every 25 to 40 miles. I can go to the East to Mt. Hood, West to beach towns like Astoria, Cannon Beach, Lincoln City or Newport, all of which have DCQC.

Now go back to Plugshare, and select only Tesla quick chargers, and you'll only 2 in the Portland area, and pretty much none anywhere else. Even with a 300 mile Tesla, you're limited to a trip only 150 miles away. With a Leaf, you can go all over the place.

Last weekend, my wife and I drove from Portland to Depoe Bay, topping off at a DCQC on the way, and again when we passed through Lincoln City, only a few miles from our hotel. The next day, we drove South along Highway 101, spending a couple hours in Newport, then on to Yachats and then Florence, stopping at several viewpoints there and back. It was no stress at all, since we passed three DCQC stations that day. The next morning, we charged to 90% while eating lunch, drove 80 miles home without stopping at the 4 DCQC units along the way, with 11 miles left when we pulled into our driveway. We did a similar 4 day trip to Astoria two weeks before, taking advantage of the free DCQC units along the way, in Banks, Cannon Beach and Astoria.

My point is, those trips would not have been as easy with even the top Tesla model. Since we drove well over 300 miles that trip, a Tesla owner would have had to either stayed in a hotel where they could plug in to 110v each night (the place we stayed at did not have this option), or spent extra time waiting at L2 chargers.

I'm not knocking the Tesla. They are amazing cars, and if I had the money, I'd probably buy one. What I am saying is that the charging infrastructure is a very significant factor in the real and practical range of an EV, and at least in the Pacific NW, that is a huge advantage to Leaf owners (or other EVs that can use Chademo chargers).

- Scott

 

[jkirkebo]

I don't think 1000 pounds is right. It is more like 1400 I believe. Still more dense.

The cell weight is know, 7000 cells@46g equals 322kg or around 710 pounds. I doubt the packaging weighs the same as the cells.

1100 pounds is the weight I have seen referenced the most.

 

[mitch672]

svanhoosen, there isn't a single Chademo DCQC on the entire east coast, outside of the West Coast and a few in TN and few other places, there are not many. Tesla is deploying their SuperChargers, which will charge at 300 miles/hour (150 miles of range back in 30 minutes). Supposed to cover West and East coasts, and then connect them as well. We don't need nearly as many SuperChargers, because the range is better on the Model S. BTW, there is no charge (for life), to use a Supercharger either... eventually coast to coast travel will be possible for no cost to Model S owners. Glad the leaf works for you, it's a bit of a different story out here, with our cold winter temperatures, slushy roads and lack of infrastructure.

 

[TomT]

If I had it to do over again, knowing then what I do now, I'd get the Tesla...

 

[davidcary]

While I had a Tesla reservation, I decided on the Leaf.

The Leaf is way more efficient in the city (particularly the 2013) - this is a big thing to neglect. If you are buying an EV for environmental reasons, efficiency is still important no matter what the source of electricity. 130 vs 88 or 94 - that is like 40% more efficient.

The costs on a Tesla are truly impressive. The TCO is likely somewhere around 5 times as much despite the only 3x retail value. Little things like the $600 a year for maintenance (which was required to maintain the battery warranty until just a few days ago). The not free for 3 years 3G service which had $30 a month trial pricing (I don't know what it settled to). Of course the tires cost more.

Depreciation is always the largest expense when owning a car. Ever look at Elon's depreciation schedule for a Performance model for upgrade - $1000 per month AND $1 per mile. Wow. Obviously a gross overestimate but it is an order of magnitude more than a Leaf lease. Now we are talking 10 times the TCO.

So yes - the Tesla is a sexier and faster and more fun car to drive. But value for dollar is still a tough sell. The few Tesla owner's I know have a lot more money than I do even though I could comfortably afford a Tesla. But what I couldn't afford is for the company to go belly up and have some software crash that left me stranded with a $80k paperweight.

The weight reference I was using was 30% of 4600 - or around 1400 pounds. Obviously the 30% was an estimate but I doubt it was closer to 20%. I find it surprising that the Tesla battery would be that much lighter than the Leaf's battery. Not impossible - just surprising. Because in the end, aren't we talking the relatively same chemistry?

 

[jkirkebo]

The weight reference I was using was 30% of 4600 - or around 1400 pounds. Obviously the 30% was an estimate but I doubt it was closer to 20%. I find it surprising that the Tesla battery would be that much lighter than the Leaf's battery. Not impossible - just surprising. Because in the end, aren't we talking the relatively same chemistry?

No, I don't think so.

Leaf - AESC LiMn, 157Wh/kg (http://www.eco-aesc-lb.com/en/product/liion_ev/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false
Model S - Panasonic NCA, 245Wh/kg (http://www.panasonic.com/industrial/includes/pdf/ACA4000CE254-NCR18650A.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false

The cells Tesla used is a tweaked (for automobile applications, longer cycle life) version of the NCR-18650A.

The Tesla cells weigh 64% of the AESC cells for the same energy content. It is my understanding that Nissan is going to NCA chemistry for the next generation battery.A 37kWh battery in the same casing as the existing 24kWh battery would be very nice indeed.

 

[Pipcecil]

We just bought a 2013 Leaf SL a month ago. We've driven it 1600+ miles already, including two beach trips for 3 or 4 days each. We've been getting 90 to 95 miles range on average. At first I was a bit jealous of Teslas, with their 200 to 300 mile range (one of my co-workers has one), but now I see things differently. Sure, they can go further on a single charge, but EVs are limited on trips to the supporting charging infrastructure. I live in the Portland, OR area, and if you go to Plugshare and show Chademo DC quick chargers that Leafs use, you'll see that I can travel all the way North to Canada, or South to California, as I-5 has DCQC units every 25 to 40 miles. I can go to the East to Mt. Hood, West to beach towns like Astoria, Cannon Beach, Lincoln City or Newport, all of which have DCQC.

I think, as others have pointed out, it pretty areas that have nice climate and lots of DCQC, a leaf is very competitive to a Tesla in "range". But take any of those wonderful things away and the gap widens out. In the Dallas-Fort Worth area we have many DCQC chargers, which is great because my car has lost so much range from the heat it has become quite sad. Upper 60's if I am lucky is all I can push out of the car that is not even 2 years old (average 4 mi/kWh). And thats to a dead battery, minus LBW or VLBW breaks (really don't want to drain below that) and you remove even more potential range. If I had the money and knew what I knew now - these car batteries need SOME type of cooling system. Even some type of air fan to help blow away the heat would be preferable.

 

[LTLFTcomposite]

The Tesla cells weigh 64% of the AESC cells for the same energy content. It is my understanding that Nissan is going to NCA chemistry for the next generation battery.A 37kWh battery in the same casing as the existing 24kWh battery would be very nice indeed.

Boy howdy. Plus if they used the 50lbs or so that was engineered out of the 2013 to cram in a little more they could get to 40kWh. That becomes a *very* interesting solution for mass market adoption.

 

[davidcary]

Well - I clicked your references and don't see any reproducible weight comparison.

The Tesla reference is just for individual cells - all the meat to connect them together has to account for something....

And hey - they are both Lithium based so it would still be surprising to me to see such disparate weights given a true apple to apple comparison. Let's face it - the Tesla is rather weighty given the $$ put into weight reduction. The Leaf is also a little porker. But if the battery only weighed 1000 pounds on the Tesla - 3600 would be a lot given the emphasis on weight reduction for a car that size sans a drivetrain.

 

[Rat]

I have never ridden in a Tesla but I have a friend who has (a new model S just a week ago). He says my Leaf is just as comfortable. I might be able to afford a Tesla, at least if I was willing to mortgage my house, but even if money was no object, I can't see buying one. In addition to the environmental reasons given here, just the hassle of owning one sounds like a pain. Plus I need a hatchback for some things. Maybe the Model S has enough storage and a big enough opening for some larger objects, but I don't think so. I have an ICE car for the longer range trips, and this weekend I'm going to do a 200-mi. round trip using QC's repeatedly for the first time in my Leaf, so even that issue is (finally) losing its relevance. I'm still happy with my decision to buy the Leaf and would do it all over again despite the ugly learning curve with Nissan and dealers, which I hope has been smoothed out now.