Leaf versus Tesla

[jackal]

A $100K Tesla or a $30k Leaf, with an overnight charge time, still buys a lot of tankfuls of good old gasoline. Time is money is life. It's all very mathematical.

The actual differential between a leaf-like ICE is about 5-10K for the battery. This price gap represents a choice between paying upfront and paying later much like pre-paid phone plans vs contracted phone plans.

In short, EVs will cost competitive when the manufacturers start offering battery lease option (with no upfront battery costs) making EVs similar or cheaper at time of purchase. I understand Nissan is already offering that in Europe and very likely to USA soon.

 

[timhebb]

More than a few drivers of 2013 Leafs, in particular the entry-level model S, report that their savings on gas approaches, equals or exceeds the cost of their lease payment, effectively rendering the Leaf a cost-neutral vehicle during the lease term.

Factor in the additional savings on maintenance, smog checks, etc., and it's very difficult for an informed person to characterize the Leaf as a toy for the wealthy.

It's all about TCO - Total Cost of Operation.

 

[apvbguy]

Not sure what planet you live on,

Earth 2013: Gas at 4$ a gallon adjusted for inflation is still cheaper than buying a Leaf or a Tesla. And with shale oil and shale NatGas, the future immediate is very much undetermined.

A $100K Tesla or a $30k Leaf, with an overnight charge time, still buys a lot of tankfuls of good old gasoline. Time is money is life. It's all very mathematical.

The rich are different.

excuse me??? regardless of the fuel used to propel the vehicle there are still costs associated with owning a vehicle, and without arguing about your bloated numbers your calculations are absurd if you ignore that simple fact. now if you want to argue the cost of petroleum based fuel versus the cost of electricity I think that you would not be able to prove that petro is less costly than electricity. then you could bring the ancillary ramifications of having millions of fluid filled vehicles on the roads each spewing pollutants versus electric generation. yes the rich are different, they are rich and for the most part they got rich by being faster brighter and more clever than others.

 

[mitch672]

There is no "Leaf versus Tesla"' it's like comparing a Volkswagen to a Masersti; they will both get you from point A to point B (as long as it's less than 73 highway miles away in the Leaf). There really is NO comparision... Trust me, I've driven a Leaf, and I own a Model S. It's good to have done well enough in life to be able to afford a Model S, I would not say I am "rich"

 

[apvbguy]

There is no "Leaf versus Tesla"' it's like comparing a Volkswagen to a Masersti; they will both get you from point A to point B (as long as it's less than 73 highway miles away in the Leaf). There really is NO comparision... Trust me, I've driven a Leaf, and I own a Model S. It's good to have done well enough in life to be able to afford a Model S, I would not say I am "rich"

I could afford a Tesla S, however I am in a LEAF, why? because 80+k is too much for me to spend on what is still an experimental form of propulsion. I leased my LEAF for 2 years with the hope that the technology will progress in that time to a point where a Tesla isn't a 5 year ownership experience that will have little resale value. If I want "luxury" or the wow factor ( even though the LEAF generates alot of wow ) I will get in my MB sl550 gasser, something I haven't done since I brought the LEAF home 3 weeks ago

 

[mitch672]

There is no "Leaf versus Tesla"' it's like comparing a Volkswagen to a Masersti; they will both get you from point A to point B (as long as it's less than 73 highway miles away in the Leaf). There really is NO comparision... Trust me, I've driven a Leaf, and I own a Model S. It's good to have done well enough in life to be able to afford a Model S, I would not say I am "rich"

I could afford a Tesla S, however I am in a LEAF, why? because 80+k is too much for me to spend on what is still an experimental form of propulsion. I leased my LEAF for 2 years with the hope that the technology will progress in that time to a point where a Tesla isn't a 5 year ownership experience that will have little resale value. If I want "luxury" or the wow factor ( even though the LEAF generates alot of wow ) I will get in my MB sl550 gasser, something I haven't done since I brought the LEAF home 3 weeks ago

The Leaf can never be a single persons only car, unless they never drive anywhere.
73 mile highway range is not acceptable. Once I sell my Plug in Prius, the Model S will be my only car.
The price does not matter if the vehicle can't do the job. You could buy 2 Leafs, your still not driving 135 miles in one direction, then returning the same day without any charging (270 mile highway range charge). Tesla also has the SuperCharger network being deployed, free road trip fuel for life. Again, there is NO comparing a Leaf to a Model S. The Model S replaces an ICE, the Leaf only does partially.
I'm not worried about the resale value, there is no need to even consider selling it for at least 10 years, also Tesla now has an upgrade program in place, if you want their latest high end model (not realy needed, but availble). Tesla wants you as a customer for life, and they are implementing policy's to make it likely.

 

[rcyoder]

I disagree that a Leaf can't be your only vehicle... but you have to be willing to think outside the box and be willing to rent long-distance capability when you need it. Some years back a woman who used to work for me said that she would never take her own car (a random ICE sedan) on a long trip - instead she always rents *BECAUSE* if something goes wrong with the car she could call up the rental car company and tell them to bring her a new one.

My wife and I haven't gotten to that point yet -- but we do have a pair of EVs for our daily driving, a RAV4-EV and a Leaf. We also have a VW Camper Van that gets driven every 2-6 months (last year we put over 16K miles on the EVs and less than 3K miles on the van - including a round trip from LA to San Fransisco and back.) When I run the hard cold numbers we'd save money by selling the van and renting for those trips - I have easy access to a Zip Car membership so even longer local trips would be trivial.

 

[apvbguy]

There is no "Leaf versus Tesla"' it's like comparing a Volkswagen to a Masersti; they will both get you from point A to point B (as long as it's less than 73 highway miles away in the Leaf). There really is NO comparision... Trust me, I've driven a Leaf, and I own a Model S. It's good to have done well enough in life to be able to afford a Model S, I would not say I am "rich"

I could afford a Tesla S, however I am in a LEAF, why? because 80+k is too much for me to spend on what is still an experimental form of propulsion. I leased my LEAF for 2 years with the hope that the technology will progress in that time to a point where a Tesla isn't a 5 year ownership experience that will have little resale value. If I want "luxury" or the wow factor ( even though the LEAF generates alot of wow ) I will get in my MB sl550 gasser, something I haven't done since I brought the LEAF home 3 weeks ago

The Leaf can never be a single persons only car, unless they never drive anywhere.
73 mile highway range is not acceptable. Once I sell my Plug in Prius, the Model S will be my only car.
The price does not matter if the vehicle can't do the job. You could buy 2 Leafs, your still not driving 135 miles in one direction, then returning the same day without any charging (270 mile highway range charge). Tesla also has the SuperCharger network being deployed, free road trip fuel for life. Again, there is NO comparing a Leaf to a Model S. The Model S replaces an ICE, the Leaf only does partially.
I'm not worried about the resale value, there is no need to even consider selling it for at least 10 years, also Tesla now has an upgrade program in place, if you want their latest high end model (not realy needed, but availble). Tesla wants you as a customer for life, and they are implementing policy's to make it likely.

I am so glad that your solution works for you, it is a shame that you don't realize that one size does not fit all.
one quick example of this reality is that it is more than likely that you are a wage slave with a long commute while I am a retired geezer who put all of 7k on his gasser last year and I could recite almost 4k of those miles verbatim (long road trips).
Good luck and stay safe

 

[mitch672]

I am so glad that your solution works for you, it is a shame that you don't realize that one size does not fit all. Good luck and stay safe

The Leaf specifically does not work for me. I had a reservation and a $99 deposit on 4/20/2010 (first day a Leaf could be reserved). Just could not see paying insurance and depreciation on multiple vehicles. Doesn't matter anyway, it's very likely in 10 years time my TSLA stock will be several multiples of what I paid for my Model S, it will be essentially "free" - I've already locked in $19K of profit to date, so %20 paid for already, not counting the $7,500 Federal tax credit.

 

[Zythryn]

...
I am so glad that your solution works for you, it is a shame that you don't realize that one size does not fit all.
one quick example of this reality is that it is more than likely that you are a wage slave with a long commute while I am a retired geezer who put all of 7k on his gasser last year and I could recite almost 4k of those miles verbatim (long road trips).
Good luck and stay safe

The Leaf works great for some as an only vehicle, just as the Tesla works for others and gas burners are required by some.
It all depends upon your driving patterns.

I also wanted a Leaf. However the driving patterns of our family made it not work well. We ended buying a Model S, not for the luxury, or the wow factor, but simply for the range.
And before you make any assumptions about me, no I am not a wage slave

Back to stone: you didn't mention cost was your only factor. As such, I would recommend walking or biking. Those are much cheaper than your ICE vehicles for both you and your children, nieces, nephews, etc.

 

[johnqh]

The Leaf can never be a single persons only car, unless they never drive anywhere.
73 mile highway range is not acceptable. Once I sell my Plug in Prius, the Model S will be my only car.
The price does not matter if the vehicle can't do the job. You could buy 2 Leafs, your still not driving 135 miles in one direction, then returning the same day without any charging (270 mile highway range charge). Tesla also has the SuperCharger network being deployed, free road trip fuel for life. Again, there is NO comparing a Leaf to a Model S. The Model S replaces an ICE, the Leaf only does partially.
I'm not worried about the resale value, there is no need to even consider selling it for at least 10 years, also Tesla now has an upgrade program in place, if you want their latest high end model (not realy needed, but availble). Tesla wants you as a customer for life, and they are implementing policy's to make it likely.

Yes it can, for someone who has Zipcar close-by.

Every business would love a customer for life. That doesn't mean every customer wants to be.

 

[johnqh]

I disagree that a Leaf can't be your only vehicle... but you have to be willing to think outside the box and be willing to rent long-distance capability when you need it. Some years back a woman who used to work for me said that she would never take her own car (a random ICE sedan) on a long trip - instead she always rents *BECAUSE* if something goes wrong with the car she could call up the rental car company and tell them to bring her a new one.

I am the same way. The $30/day rental cost is less than the depreciation caused by $300/day driving.

 

[apvbguy]

...


Back to stone: you didn't mention cost was your only factor. As such, I would recommend walking or biking. Those are much cheaper than your ICE vehicles for both you and your children, nieces, nephews, etc.

cost was not my ONLY factor, but being foolish spending money is a factor, and to me getting the LEAF was like buying 2 years to allow the technology to grow some more, for tesla to get their wait list down for new companies to develop better batteries. Spending 80+K on the tesla makes no sense at this time when I can drive a LEAF at a much lower cost. I am fortunate that the range limitations are not as important to me as it is to others, the range of the LEAF suits me just fine. As for the snarky get a bike comment....... We'll let the response percolate some.

 

[Zythryn]

...As for the snarky get a bike comment....... We'll let the response percolate some.

My apologies if I wasn't clear. That was addressed to stone, not you. He seemed very concerned with cost. And my comment was not snarky, a bike or walking is much cheaper.

If Stone is only considering cost, and not utility of the vehicle, comfort factors, speed of travel, the a bike or walking are definitely the way to go.

I am happy that the range of the Leaf works well for you. Wish it did for us.

 

[jackal]

I think this thread should be called "Leaf or Tesla". There is no 'vs' simply because they are so ... different.

It would have been easy to say Tesla wins hands down in specs...if money is no concern. It is sexy and gives excitement to EV.

Leaf on the other hand represents a not-so-flashy economical mass market solution to future transport. I believe that's the reason that so many root for it because of its humble backgrounds.

However, we badly need both audiences and I think we are just so lucky to have these 2 so-different companies committing to EV to break the oil-based transportation landscape.

 

[epic]

There is no "Leaf versus Tesla"' it's like comparing a Volkswagen to a Masersti; they will both get you from point A to point B (as long as it's less than 73 highway miles away in the Leaf). There really is NO comparision... Trust me, I've driven a Leaf, and I own a Model S. It's good to have done well enough in life to be able to afford a Model S, I would not say I am "rich"

was your s delivered in 2012 or 13?

 

[scottf200]

There is no "Leaf versus Tesla"' it's like comparing a Volkswagen to a Masersti; they will both get you from point A to point B (as long as it's less than 73 highway miles away in the Leaf). There really is NO comparision... Trust me, I've driven a Leaf, and I own a Model S. It's good to have done well enough in life to be able to afford a Model S, I would not say I am "rich"

was your s delivered in 2012 or 13?

Via his signature:

Tesla Model S Reservation # P10010, signed MVPA 12/4/2012, VIN: 03245, delivered 1/17/2012

 

[mitch672]

was your s delivered in 2012 or 13?

Not sure why it matters, the VIN is coded as a 2012, it was manufactured in Dec of 2012, it was paid for on January 10th, 2013, and picked up in the Watertown, MA service center on January 17th, 2013

That actually worked out better for me, because I couldn't have taken the PiP $2,500 credit AND the Model S $7,500 credit both on my 2012 tax return. Yes, not fun to have to wait nearly 15 months for the credit, that's just how it worked out.

Thanks scottf200

 

[cwerdna]

^^^
From scottf200 quoting your sig, I notice a typo, an impossible delivery date...

 

[mitch672]

^^^
From scottf200 quoting your sig, I notice a typo, an impossible delivery date...

Just a typo, all fixed now. You think I could not have taken delivery before they started making them?