Leaf is dead after vacation...

[lpickup]

Seriously my little tiny Li-ion battery on the cell phone can keep my phone powered up for almost ONE week (I don't yet have a smartphone) and that's including a few calls each day!

is it?? you might want to look at power needs of your "dumb" phone verses a smart phone. you might find the power demands increase quite a bit with the capabilities of the device.

turn on Wi Fi and Bluetooth. these are two radios constantly scanning for a signal. this should give you an idea of the differences between your cell phone and the Leaf

it has already been WIDELY and EXTENSIVELY DISCUSSED here that plugging your car in while on an extended vacation is a mistake.

I didn't quite understand what you were referring to when you said "Is it??" And actually I do have Bluetooth on 100% of the time on my cell phone (I use a Bluetooth cordless phone at home that is actively connected to my phone almost all the time). Nonetheless, the point I was trying to make is that some of the examples of "dark power" that were brought up (and I don't dispute at all that there is "dark power") was Carwings communication, key fob searching, security system, etc. Those seem very similar to my phone's standby power needs. I.e. Why would the car's Carwings TCU use any more power than my cell phone waiting for a call or text message? And okay, my cell phone isn't searching for a key fob, but it does have its Bluetooth radio powered up which I suspect is drawing at least as much power as whatever key fob receiver is. Point being, my phone has a 1.1Ah battery and can last almost a week before being discharged. Okay, it's not lead acid--is lead acid really that much worse than Li-ion at retaining a charge? I don't have the A-h/W-h spec on the LEAF's 12V battery, but I've gotta believe it's quite a bit larger than my cell phone's battery!

Okay, so it's a car and not a cell phone that's obviously been optimized for low power operation. So for the example given: 50mA @ 12V = 600mW I suppose that's a fair standby power budget, but in 2 weeks that's going to consume 200 Wh (16 Ah @ 12V). That would mean be only 16X more capacity than the little Li-ion battery on my phone!

 

[lpickup]

You're about 0.3-0.6 kWh short of what I've seen it take from the wall to charge from 80-100% according to my Blink when I've topped off to 100%. Might want to start a new thread for this topic.

Yeah, might be an interesting topic. My point was just to show the OP that the time it would take to top off is pretty small, but at the same time I've heard estimates it took longer and that the taper off period is longer, so I wanted to share my data.

 

[Ingineer]

Here are my numbers for the Leaf: (Solar panel blocked to ensure accurate readings)

After 1 minute of leaving, all lights are apparently off, but Leaf is still awake at 801ma:

(Actually this is the high, it seems to bounce around from 300-900ma)

After about 12 minutes it finally goes to "sleep" at 15ma with 40ma peaks. Average is probably about 30ma:

The battery in the Leaf when brand new is good for about 30ah until it's too low to power up the Leaf. (not that you ever want to draw it this low!) So that means without any intervention, you're looking at 1000 hours or 6 weeks. If your solar panel is working (I haven't measured this yet), then possibly forever. The Leaf is also suppose to top off the 12v occasionally, but it would be using traction pack energy for this, and I wouldn't want to go there.

However, If you leave a charge cable connected that isn't charging because of a timer, the Leaf seems to draw up to an additional ~10ma and wakes up periodically with the 300-900ma draw! Let's call it best case at 45ma total, that means your 12v is dead in less than a month. Now you never really want to deep cycle the 12v battery, so you want to definitely avoid even 50% discharges. So limit your vacations without taking action to 2 weeks.

Note: Leaving a charge cable connected with the charger in a hold state, such as "Stopping charge" on a Blink will leave the Leaf in a high-draw scenario, so your battery will be dead in under a week!

Again, My best advice is to charge to 50-80% and disconnect the 12v battery for those vacations that are over 2 weeks. If you absolutely must arrive to the car with a full charge, then creative use of the timers with a short charge daily up to 80%, then you can carwings it the rest of the way to 100% before you drive. Leaving the charger connected but not charging for over a few weeks will result in a dead Leaf and a severely abused 12v battery!

-Phil

 

[Nubo]

...the point I was trying to make is that some of the examples of "dark power" that were brought up (and I don't dispute at all that there is "dark power") was Carwings communication, key fob searching, security system, etc. Those seem very similar to my phone's standby power needs. I.e. Why would the car's Carwings TCU use any more power than my cell phone waiting for a call or text message? And okay, my cell phone isn't searching for a key fob, but it does have its Bluetooth radio powered up which I suspect is drawing at least as much power as whatever key fob receiver is. Point being, my phone has a 1.1Ah battery and can last almost a week before being discharged....

Hardware is designed to the intended application. A cellphone is designed with that small battery in mind. The engineering chioces to achieve such low power consumption add expense. When you've got a 400 watt-hour battery you don't make those same hardware/software compromises.

My last car was an ICE, but the dark current meant that I wouldn't leave it more than 3 weeks parked with the battery connected.

imho, most cars these days are best served by deep-cycle batteries because of dark current. That way, an unintentional deep-discharge doesn't significantly reduce the service life of the battery.

 

[TLeaf]

Somewhat germane to the conversation, it's widely known on the Vectrix scooter forum that leaving the bike plugged in to 220V (a lot of the owners are European) results in a CONSTANT power draw of 100W to the charge controller. Considering that the cooling fan for the charger only runs when the battery is actively being charged, this has lead to a number of premature charge controller failures due to overheating.

By comparison, I'd say that it looks like Nissan has done a pretty good job managing "plugged in" power draw. My only question would have to deal with cell balancing if you never charge to 100%. This is probably not an issue on any of the cars yet, but it's the one aspect of the LEAF BMS that I've yet to get a satisfactory answer on (need to look through the forums again as I seem to recall something about "pulse" charges occurring after the bulk charge has terminated).

 

[TonyWilliams]

My only question would have to deal with cell balancing if you never charge to 100%. This is probably not an issue on any of the cars yet, but it's the one aspect of the LEAF BMS that I've yet to get a satisfactory answer on (need to look through the forums again as I seem to recall something about "pulse" charges occurring after the bulk charge has terminated).

Here's my experience with losing range at the bottom of the battery capacity, doing a 100% charge (with a subsequent "top off" charge 4 hours after reaching 100%), then all returned to normal.

I termed it "Sans Effect".

 

[SanDust]

The battery in the Leaf when brand new is good for about 30ah until it's too low to power up the Leaf. (not that you ever want to draw it this low!)

Do you know the draw needed to start?

 

[TomT]

Unlike an ICE that has a large starter motor draw, the power-up draw of the Leaf is quite low. Thus, it is more a case of minimum required voltage than amperage. I don't know that anyone has tested to see what the minimum voltage is but I suspect you could draw the battery down to 20 percent or so and still have plenty left to power up the Leaf. Of course, that would not be good for the longevity of the battery...

The battery in the Leaf when brand new is good for about 30ah until it's too low to power up the Leaf. (not that you ever want to draw it this low!)

Do you know the draw needed to start?

 

[SanDust]

Unlike an ICE that has a large starter motor draw, the power-up draw of the Leaf is quite low. Thus, it is more a case of minimum required voltage than amperage. I don't know that anyone has tested to see what the minimum voltage is

The battery just needs to power the electronics, which is a good thing because I don't think the Leaf battery can deliver enough watts to crank an engine. My SWAG would be 150 watts for the electronics. That's a complete guess. Given we have a 12v battery can't we assume that's the voltage?

 

[walterbays]

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=5332&hilit=battery+dead+vacation&start=80#p141972

The reason to leave it unplugged is because every time the on-board charger comes on to top-off the Li-ion battery, the charging timer for the 12V battery gets reset for another 5 days, therefore, it never receives any charge.

I left mine sit for a week plugged in and it was fine. Difference is I left the timer at 12a to 6a to charge to 80% on L1. Was not charged to 80% until the second night. Third night it still began charging for at least a few minutes. The final night it was set to go 100% and charged as expected.

Smkettner's method is what I did before for a 4 day trip. After a couple of nights on L1 I was up to 80% and I manually triggered a charge to 100% just before I returned. But if amtoro is right in the other thread, then for a longer trip I'd risk returning to a fully charged main battery but a fully discharged 12V battery. In that case one should use the day-of-week feature of the timer to charge only 1 day out of 7. But then that might not be enough to refill the battery before you returned if you're charging only 12-5am on L1.

Moreover, if indeed a car plugged into L1 may discharge the 12V battery, then what we've been telling airport parking operators about what kind of facilities EV drivers need is wrong. For extended trips, many of us say, it's much better to have many 120V outlets than a few L2 plugs. But if we can't really use L1, then what's needed is a few L2 plugs and/or DC QC with valet parking where the car will sit unplugged for most of the trip, and then they'll charge it for you just before you return.

 

[TomT]

No, a lead acid battery has a proportional voltage drop as it discharges... Fully charged it is around 12.6 volts with a C/20 discharge dripping to about 11.7 when fully discharged at a c/20 rate. 50% is about 12.3V.

Unlike an ICE that has a large starter motor draw, the power-up draw of the Leaf is quite low. Thus, it is more a case of minimum required voltage than amperage. I don't know that anyone has tested to see what the minimum voltage is

I don't think the Leaf battery delivers enough watts to crank and engine. My SWAG would be 150 watts for the electronics. That's a complete guess. Given we have a 12v battery can't we assume that's the voltage?

 

[garygid]

Set the LEAF timer to charge to 80% only ONE DAY per week, then the 5-day "timer" for the 12v battery would also work once a week, right?

 

[smkettner]

Moreover, if indeed a car plugged into L1 may discharge the 12V battery, then what we've been telling airport parking operators about what kind of facilities EV drivers need is wrong. For extended trips, many of us say, it's much better to have many 120V outlets than a few L2 plugs. But if we can't really use L1, then what's needed is a few L2 plugs and/or DC QC with valet parking where the car will sit unplugged for most of the trip, and then they'll charge it for you just before you return.

I have always advocated low amp 120v charging at longterm parking venues. Hardwire wallmount version of Leviton L1 7 amp would be perfect. Plain old 5-15 outlet wired for split service between stalls is low cost solution.

These 40a installs are a waste. For transient use QC at nominal fee is better.

 

[Ingineer]

The reason to leave it unplugged is because every time the on-board charger comes on to top-off the Li-ion battery, the charging timer for the 12V battery gets reset for another 5 days, therefore, it never receives any charge.

The 12v Battery charges every time and all the time the traction battery is charging. (Anytime the main contactor is closed)

-Phil

 

[Pipcecil]

Sorry, I am no engineer (biologist), but could the 12v battery charger per 5 day cycle mess-up be caused by the EVSE itself? Is it possible that specific EVSEs cause a communication problem and its messing with the algorithium with the leaf? The only reason I mention this is in this post (and previous ones), a few people have left their car plugged in for 2+ weeks and had no problems with the 12v battery drain (i.e. the normal 5 day cycle kicked in). Again, without proper setting (i.e. it may have been parked outside) it would be hard to eliminate all the variables. But, and this is a total guess based on distribution, but it could be the Blink EVSEs since, I am assuming this is what most people have (that is, if there is even a problem).

Final question, how do you get around this issue if your vacation includes you flying out from the airport and you can only take your leaf AND you need to get a charge to take it back home from the airport. The vehicle could be plugged in for an extended 2+ weeks. Do you just take your chaces at that point?

 

[coqui]

Final question, how do you get around this issue if your vacation includes you flying out from the airport and you can only take your leaf AND you need to get a charge to take it back home from the airport. The vehicle could be plugged in for an extended 2+ weeks. Do you just take your chaces at that point?

Wow this is a good question as I am in that situation myself for business trips. Can anyone weigh in on this?

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

Set the LEAF timer to charge to 80% only ONE DAY per week, then the 5-day "timer" for the 12v battery would also work once a week, right?

it "might" work. as Phil stated, plugged in, the Leaf will be in "readiness" mode and pulling a high rate of standby power.

in retrospect, i should not have ventured my Carwings option. it was just saying "if Carwings could?" and it caused more confusion than good. but

1) if going for say 2 weeks or less, charge to 50 % and go. leave the car unplugged. you should be fine.

2) if longer, probably charge to 50% and place battery tender on 12 volt.

now my suggestion; allow me to turn on AND off charging manually from Carwings.

if starting from a 20% SOC per se. you are looking at needing about 12-13 KW to get to around 80%. my suggestion of MANUALLY charging 15 minutes a day is to give a small boost to the SOC but at the same time, top off the 12 volt battery and I have total control over this.

the reason; some of us are math challenged. penciling out a charging schedule before leaving on a long trip is a disaster waiting to happen since Carwings does not allow much as far as manual adjustments. my method allows me to change to every other day if i find i made a math mistake and will be fully charged before i return.

what i envision under the charging timing is people misjudging and having a Leaf sitting for 2-3 days at full SOC because they "didnt carry a 1" or something

i guess this also brings me to another point;

every time i use Carwings, i get the distinct impression that i am using a program that has been purposefully disabled. ya know the feeling. play a free demo. clink on somthing and see "get this level and more with the Full Version for only $29.95!!"

all i can say is if Carwings tells me about "new" functionality in 19 months when my Free subscription is about to end, i will be PO'd~

 

[lpickup]

Final question, how do you get around this issue if your vacation includes you flying out from the airport and you can only take your leaf AND you need to get a charge to take it back home from the airport. The vehicle could be plugged in for an extended 2+ weeks. Do you just take your chaces at that point?

How much is parking for 2+ weeks at the airport and how does that compare to the cost of a shuttle ride?

Not that I've had the opportunity myself to be gone for that long, but my brother-in-law's family takes extended trips sometimes and they leave their car at his house. I believe he drives it around every now and then so it doesn't just "sit".

Another option: some of the off-airport lots I've seen that offer cheap (extended) parking also offer additional services such as battery jumping. I wonder if you could find one that would offer the service of plugging in your LEAF the day before your return (or day of if you were getting back late).

 

[Stanton]

How much is parking for 2+ weeks at the airport and how does that compare to the cost of a shuttle ride?

You hit the nail on the head: if I'm going to be gone longer than a week (which is VERY rare), I take the airport shuttle; it just isn't cost-effective to do otherwise.

I still say the simple answer is: don't leave your Leaf plugged in for a long time (multiple days) charging or not. If you can't make the round-trip on one charge, use a different car or take the shuttle. One of the criteria for me buying a Leaf was I could make it to/from our airport.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

How much is parking for 2+ weeks at the airport and how does that compare to the cost of a shuttle ride?

You hit the nail on the head: if I'm going to be gone longer than a week (which is VERY rare), I take the airport shuttle; it just isn't cost-effective to do otherwise.

I still say the simple answer is: don't leave your Leaf plugged in for a long time (multiple days) charging or not. If you can't make the round-trip on one charge, use a different car or take the shuttle. One of the criteria for me buying a Leaf was I could make it to/from our airport.

i choose this option as well. it was $69 to shuttle from Oly to SeaTAC plus a $20 tip (which is not REQUIRED but highly expected) now that was a "few" years ago so its probably near $100 i am guessing but for a trip more than say 4-5 days, its well worth it. keep in mind, its double but have used the Shuttle 4 times and always had a ride home.