Jamb this in your LEAF

[suresnoi]

Impressive performance in designing the most hideous "thing" on earth...

 

[TickTock]

I am still trying to figure out what problem they are trying to solve. DC charger - use DC plug. AC charger use the other one. It would be like making a USB+headphone jack combo plug for the front of a PC just in case someone isn't sure which to use. Maybe smaller footprint? I don't buy that - you can only make a car so small so there is plenty of real-estate. What is it?

 

[JPWhite]

I am still trying to figure out what problem they are trying to solve.

That one is easy

The problem they (they being SAE) are trying to solve is the fact that a few Japanese companies have set a De Facto standard for fast charging which is being deployed around the world. There is a danger it will be deployed in the USA too. Detroit and Dearborn are way behind and need some time to catch up. SAE wants to be the ones to set the standard, since that's what they do.

SAE is an automotive standards institution headquartered in the USA. They have the best interests of Detroit and Dearborn in mind as well as justifying their own existence. They bill their standard as a 'world standard'.

Underwriters Laboratories are dragging their feet in certifying the Blink Fast Chargers with the CHAdeMO connector, reportedly because the cable is 'heavy' and those with disabilities may have problems handling it. UL are, of course, based in the US.

My guess is that the US automotive industry is putting pressure on both SAE and UL to 'put a wrench in the gears' until they can come up with vehicles with fast charging systems as well. (UK Translation - 'put a spanner in the works').

 

[Yanquetino]

My biggest concern is, if Nissan decides to adopt SAE's all-in-one "standard," will it even fit inside the charging port on the LEAF?

It seems to me that they'd have to make the entire opening larger (taller) to accomodate it. If so... good luck trying to retrofit existing LEAFs: they'd have to install the receptacle sideways!

 

[JPWhite]

My biggest concern is, if Nissan decides to adopt SAE's all-in-one "standard," will it even fit inside the charging port on the LEAF?

It seems to me that they'd have to make the entire opening larger (taller) to accomodate it. If so... good luck trying to retrofit existing LEAFs: they'd have to install the receptacle sideways!

An adapter would solve the physical space issue. Not sure if it could solve the signalling differences, Hopefuly so.

 

[mitch672]

An adapter would solve the physical space issue. Not sure if it could solve the signalling differences, Hopefuly so.

Nope, if you read the PDF document from SAE linked here, the "signalling" is going to be "powerline carrier" (meaning it's transmitted over the 2 AC pins on the J-1772 connector)

currently that is NOT the method for even AC charging (1Khz PWM pilot signal is used on a dedicated J-1772 "pilot" contact), the DC standard for Chedemo is unknown but appears to use signalling pins on the DC connector, unknown protocol.

so no, the signally won't be compatable without some type of translator device, if its even possible at all.

 

[TomT]

Considering how increasingly unreliable power line signaling is in general (with more and more noise pollution on the line), I question the wisdom of that decision as well...

Nope, if you read the PDF document from SAE linked here, the "signalling" is going to be "powerline carrier" (meaning it's transmitted over the 2 AC pins on the J-1772 connector).

 

[Packet]

I am still trying to figure out what problem they are trying to solve. DC charger - use DC plug. AC charger use the other one. It would be like making a USB+headphone jack combo plug for the front of a PC just in case someone isn't sure which to use.

To play devil's advocate here for a moment using an example that everyone in the US /does/ deal with on a daily basis, think of it like a wall outlet. If you have a three-prong grounded outlet on your wall, but a two-prong plug, you can still plug the two-prong plug into the three-prong outlet. You cannot, however, plug a three-prong plug on a device into a two-prong outlet on your wall. The upshot of this is that if you have three-prong outlets in your house, you can plug whatever you get in anywhere in your house. If, however, you have parts of your house still on older wiring (an actual situation in both my parents' house and my own), you may have certain places where you only have older NEMA1 two-prong outlets, where you cannot plug in a three-prong plug.

I think SAE's goal here is to have the car side be the equivalent of a three-prong outlet -- you can plug either thing IN. The actual charging stations would differ in what they had, just like various electronic devices have various different plugs; the normal J-plug would be the two-prong equivalent, while the SAE quick charge plug would be the three-prong. Those of us who have older cars which only had the first-generation J1772 connector would be the equivalent of people who have two-prong outlets in their houses; you can still use two-prong plugs in those outlets, but not the three-prong plugs.

 

[Herm]

Nope, if you read the PDF document from SAE linked here, the "signalling" is going to be "powerline carrier" (meaning it's transmitted over the 2 AC pins on the J-1772 connector)

Does that make anyone shudder?

 

[mitch672]

Nope, if you read the PDF document from SAE linked here, the "signalling" is going to be "powerline carrier" (meaning it's transmitted over the 2 AC pins on the J-1772 connector)

Does that make anyone shudder?

I think "AC Powerline" communications on a "closed" system (between the DC fast charger and the EV) won't be that bad, and I bet will be fairly reliable. We are not talking about using house wiring, or sending this over long distance AC power lines (although that is mentioned for "management" from the utility, and may be part of this solution as well eventually)

 

[Smidge204]

Nope, if you read the PDF document from SAE linked here, the "signalling" is going to be "powerline carrier" (meaning it's transmitted over the 2 AC pins on the J-1772 connector)

Does that make anyone shudder?

My only problem with that is it makes it extremely difficult, if not impossible, to retrofit CHAdeMO equipment with this setup. I can understand the desire to make one connector usable for all charging situations, but this is a whole different animal. Swapping ports and cables isn't gonna cut it.
=Smidge=

 

[Nekota]

With the ban of incandescents driving more CFL onto the AC line power line signaling is going to noiser. I like powerline signaling and have used X10 (aka BSR) since it was introduced 40 years ago but the added noise and filtering that other circuits create (CFL add noise, magnetic ballast suppress signals) it's going to require additional AC line filtering to be robust. And our LEAFs generate noise too - http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=3988" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; - as detected by audio speaker system.

Apparently SAE needs more electrical engineering talent on it's staff.

 

[hill]

Here's a sneak peak at SAE's next proposed standard. It replaces the gasoline pump nozzle and the diesel pump nozzle with a single convenient connector. Although petroleum cars currently on the road have individual sockets for gas and/or diesel, and no car company has announced plans to build any car which could use the new connector, some SAE members may wish to enter the petroleum car market in the future. So SAE expects deployment of old style petroleum pumps in the U.S. to halt until the new standard pumps are ready. The rest of the world will of course continue to use the separate gasoline and diesel connectors.

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

Now . . . THAT is just ridiculous -

After all . . . where's the nozzle for your CNG ... and don't forget Propane and Hydrogen . . . because if we're truely trying to make something (that's already working perfectly well) better ... let's get it right!

 

[davewill]

..I like powerline signaling and have used X10 (aka BSR) since it was introduced 40 years ago but the added noise and filtering that other circuits create (CFL add noise, magnetic ballast suppress signals) it's going to require additional AC line filtering to be robust. And our LEAFs generate noise too...

When the connection is used for DC charging, the AC pins probably won't be connected to anything but the charger. There's no need for AC power to be applied. Noise from the car can be filtered...and the car side will be tested thoroughly by the maker, anyway.

 

[JPWhite]

Nope, if you read the PDF document from SAE linked here, the "signalling" is going to be "powerline carrier" (meaning it's transmitted over the 2 AC pins on the J-1772 connector)

Does that make anyone shudder?

My only problem with that is it makes it extremely difficult, if not impossible, to retrofit CHAdeMO equipment with this setup. I can understand the desire to make one connector usable for all charging situations, but this is a whole different animal. Swapping ports and cables isn't gonna cut it.
=Smidge=

The only way an adapter can work then is if it has its own circuits/logic as part of the adapter, so it could translate the SAE signals coming from the SAE junk plug and pass them onto CHAdeMO and visa versa. Sounds like an expensive adapter. The conspiracy theorist inside me wonders if SAE designed this to make it the most difficult CHAdeMO retrofit possible.

 

[TEG]

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/28/automobiles/electric-car-makers-quest-one-plug-to-charge-them-all.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

...“A Chademo charger could conceivably be reconfigured as an SAE charger,” said Mark Perry, product planning director at Nissan North America. “It could even have both plugs to accommodate all electric vehicles.” ...

 

[JPWhite]

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/28/automobiles/electric-car-makers-quest-one-plug-to-charge-them-all.html

...“A Chademo charger could conceivably be reconfigured as an SAE charger,” said Mark Perry, product planning director at Nissan North America. “It could even have both plugs to accommodate all electric vehicles.” ...

So instead of calling a charger CHAdeMO and SAE compatible, we'll just say Hydra charger

 

[EVDRIVER]

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/28/automobiles/electric-car-makers-quest-one-plug-to-charge-them-all.html

...“A Chademo charger could conceivably be reconfigured as an SAE charger,” said Mark Perry, product planning director at Nissan North America. “It could even have both plugs to accommodate all electric vehicles.” ...

And the LEAF will have a charger upgrade for gen1, it will do 0-60 in under 7 seconds and it can do 100 miles on the freeway at 97 MPH but that is not advised if you want to keep your paint. "Pigs can also fly", said Mark Perry from Nissan as he demonstrated the accuracy of the cutting-edge LEAF telematics NAV system as the car went off the Bay Bridge when missing its destination. "Don't worry, the pack is sealed with gum from our factory employee lounge".

 

[EVDRIVER]

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/28/automobiles/electric-car-makers-quest-one-plug-to-charge-them-all.html

...“A Chademo charger could conceivably be reconfigured as an SAE charger,” said Mark Perry, product planning director at Nissan North America. “It could even have both plugs to accommodate all electric vehicles.” ...

So instead of calling a charger CHAdeMO and SAE compatible, we'll just say Hydra charger

"CHAdeNO"

 

[EVDRIVER]

I would like to see a zip tie upgrade on the gen2 model.