I don't really understand Nissan's Strategy

[GetOffYourGas]

Surely, you exaggerate. Studies on the Leaf (http://news.fleetcarma.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/Leaf_Range_Cold_Weather_FleetCarma.png" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false indicate that its range drops to about 50 miles in sub zero weather (not 30-40 miles).

With a degraded battery? When pushing through snow? Running the heater? At freeway speeds? Stopping at LBW, as a lot of people seem to do, versus VLBW or turtle?

I'm not sure where those data points came from but in ordinary use by ordinary people the LEAF range in subzero weather would have an upper limit of 50 miles and be quite a bit less in adverse driving conditions. Running down to turtle in subzero weather is a life-threatening situation.

Let's also remember that the 50 miles you mention are ONLY if you 1) precondition the car before you leave AND 2) drive 50 miles straight, without letting the car cool down.

In my normal use, I do a lot of short trips (5-10 miles), and park the car for a while while I work, shop, or am at a kid's activity. During that time, the car cools down quickly in sub zero weather. The heater has to work hard to recondition the car. In this kind of use pattern, it is not unusual for me to get only 25 miles from my 2012 Leaf from 100% to VLBW if it's 0 degrees and snowing.

For me, a 200-mile BEV would be enough for a good comfortable winter range, plus the ability to take summer road trips. It would still not be enough to take on winter road trips (such as Christmas or even Thanksgiving - I always drive through snow storms for both holidays).

 

[TomHuffman]

Let's also remember that the 50 miles you mention are ONLY if you 1) precondition the car before you leave AND 2) drive 50 miles straight, without letting the car cool down.

In my normal use, I do a lot of short trips (5-10 miles), and park the car for a while while I work, shop, or am at a kid's activity. During that time, the car cools down quickly in sub zero weather. The heater has to work hard to recondition the car. In this kind of use pattern, it is not unusual for me to get only 25 miles from my 2012 Leaf from 100% to VLBW if it's 0 degrees and snowing.

This is not MY report and the data was not limited to the specific conditions you allude to. This data is based on a study
http://www.fleetcarma.com/nissan-leaf-chevrolet-volt-cold-weather-range-loss-electric-vehicle/
of 2,000 trips by Leaf owners under a variety of conditions. The 50-mile range in sub-zero weather was the average result. The optimal result was 60 miles. 25 miles of range is just not consistent with what most other Leaf owners report in cold weather.

 

[TomHuffman]

For those of you who are content with the Leaf in the limited role of a commuting city car, you should be pleased by the leak of what's in store for 2016--a 25% increase in range.

http://insideevs.com/2016-nissan-leaf-get-25-larger-battery/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This hasn't been officially confirmed by Nissan, not has it been denied, but the sourcing seems pretty good.

 

[GetOffYourGas]

Let's also remember that the 50 miles you mention are ONLY if you 1) precondition the car before you leave AND 2) drive 50 miles straight, without letting the car cool down.

In my normal use, I do a lot of short trips (5-10 miles), and park the car for a while while I work, shop, or am at a kid's activity. During that time, the car cools down quickly in sub zero weather. The heater has to work hard to recondition the car. In this kind of use pattern, it is not unusual for me to get only 25 miles from my 2012 Leaf from 100% to VLBW if it's 0 degrees and snowing.

This is not MY report and the data was not limited to the specific conditions you allude to. This data is based on a study
http://www.fleetcarma.com/nissan-leaf-chevrolet-volt-cold-weather-range-loss-electric-vehicle/
of 2,000 trips by Leaf owners under a variety of conditions. The 50-mile range in sub-zero weather was the average result. The optimal result was 60 miles. 25 miles of range is just not consistent with what most other Leaf owners report in cold weather.

I feel like you are missing my point. Sure, the single-trip range may be about 50 miles, but that data point is only so useful in the real world usage of a vehicle. There is a huge difference between 1) preconditioning the car, driving 50 miles to an end point (e.g. work), charging to full and preconditioning again before returning, and 2) preconditioning the car, driving 25 miles to an end point, letting the car cold-soak at -15F for 8 hours, and returning home. The former case I would believe is possible. The latter, not so much.

To take it a step farther, I take a lot of short trips: driving to work, driving my kids to karate, then running to the grocery store, and then home again. Each stop allows the car to cool off considerably, with no chance to charge. A HUGE amount of energy is spent heating the now cold car each time. Under these conditions, I get about 25 miles from a full charge at -15F. I refuse to believe that I'm really such an edge case in this use pattern.

So while not incorrect, it is wildly misleading to refer to a "trip" range.

 

[rexki]

I can attest in Chicago that "getOffYourGas" (how about "GetOffMygas" ), is very correct with his scenarios and "trip leg ranges". -5 F, the internal battery "protection" heater kicks on, this does not heat the cabin. A perfect one way leg with chargers on both ends and no stops is not the norm!! The study you are basing your disbelief about only supports these "unusual" trips "Range". Yes the car can easily get 40 miles at 0 degrees F, drop -5 degrees and now you are in the low 30's.
Go up to 10 degrees from zero and now you are in the 50 mile single leg range.

You will notice that the graph does not clarify driving styles from the test data (only "Range") and does not show worst case, only Best and Average. Very misleading for those who don't live in sub zero weather.

Was for Us, 32 mile leg trip each way, 5 in the car, left house fully charged, not preconditioned, 15 degrees daytime, arrived at destination, cold soaked for 4 hours, departing temp was now 2 degrees and GOM had 27 miles - panic stricken - luckily a Nissan Dealer was accessible to 6.6kw charger after hours - sat for 45 min, heater running and charging from 20 - 35 GOM - 27 miles left to make home. Defrost heat every 1 min and then 3 min off. Made it home with 7 miles on the GOM. This residual miles left could have been even worse if we are not in the SL version with LED lights!!

8 hours of -15F "Cold Soak" would reduce range in both temp and having to run the "protection" heater. You would have to also run cabin forced air heat for any trip legs that are less than 10 min or you will freeze - hypothermia, especially your toes and feet.

The leaf does real well in the 28 - 32 temp range, its the positive 5 to negative temps that can represent "plan your trip like a private pilot in a single engine aircraft!! People also die every year stranded in the extreme winter conditions in their internal combustion cars as well!!

 

[darthwilliam]

At least in my area (Northern Virginia), there have been a ton of CHaDEMO chargers added in the last 7 months. Almost all the local Nissan dealers have upgraded to L3. This has really helped the usability of my Leaf when making longer trips.

What will really help lots of folks will be wide spread workplace charging. That would help Apt. dwellers, and basically doubles the commuting range. Workplace chargers only need to be L2, you can even get away with L1 if you make a bunch of outlets available. (8 hrs @ 1.4Kw still gets me 11Kwh of charge).

 

[TomHuffman]

Let's also remember that the 50 miles you mention are ONLY if you 1) precondition the car before you leave AND 2) drive 50 miles straight, without letting the car cool down.

In my normal use, I do a lot of short trips (5-10 miles), and park the car for a while while I work, shop, or am at a kid's activity. During that time, the car cools down quickly in sub zero weather. The heater has to work hard to recondition the car. In this kind of use pattern, it is not unusual for me to get only 25 miles from my 2012 Leaf from 100% to VLBW if it's 0 degrees and snowing.

This is not MY report and the data was not limited to the specific conditions you allude to. This data is based on a study
http://www.fleetcarma.com/nissan-leaf-chevrolet-volt-cold-weather-range-loss-electric-vehicle/
of 2,000 trips by Leaf owners under a variety of conditions. The 50-mile range in sub-zero weather was the average result. The optimal result was 60 miles. 25 miles of range is just not consistent with what most other Leaf owners report in cold weather.

I feel like you are missing my point. Sure, the single-trip range may be about 50 miles, but that data point is only so useful in the real world usage of a vehicle. There is a huge difference between 1) preconditioning the car, driving 50 miles to an end point (e.g. work), charging to full and preconditioning again before returning, and 2) preconditioning the car, driving 25 miles to an end point, letting the car cold-soak at -15F for 8 hours, and returning home. The former case I would believe is possible. The latter, not so much.

To take it a step farther, I take a lot of short trips: driving to work, driving my kids to karate, then running to the grocery store, and then home again. Each stop allows the car to cool off considerably, with no chance to charge. A HUGE amount of energy is spent heating the now cold car each time. Under these conditions, I get about 25 miles from a full charge at -15F. I refuse to believe that I'm really such an edge case in this use pattern.

So while not incorrect, it is wildly misleading to refer to a "trip" range.

No, I am not missing your point at all. You can always build a particular set of conditions into a test that will provide an atypical result. If you get 25 miles of start-stop range in cold weather, then that is considerably at odds with the reported experience of the people in the study I cited. The study was drawn from people's actual experience, and no heating or start-stop conditions were specified one way or the other. It was a broad sample of Nissan Leaf drivers. You may refuse to believe that you are an outlier, but that's precisely what the best data I've seen shows.

 

[TomHuffman]

You will notice that the graph does not clarify driving styles from the test data (only "Range") and does not show worst case, only Best and Average. Very misleading for those who don't live in sub zero weather.

Now I think that you are missing my point.

The whole purpose of the study was to document the average or typical experience of driving the Leaf in cold weather, not to warn drivers that under, as you put it, "worst case" conditions the numbers would be different. Of course, they would be different. Worst case scenarios provide worse MPG results than advertised with ICE cars as well. An ICE car may have an EPA mileage of 30 for highway travel, but when driving up a grade against a head wind while pulling a boat drivers will certainly get a lot less than 30 MPG. So what? The point of an MPG rating is not to capture all possible scenarios, including the worst-case ones, but to offer the public a reasonable estimate of the MPG under "normal" driving conditions.

Finally, it is unclear to me how your example of driving 32 miles in a fully loaded Leaf, stopping for 4 hours, and then having 27 miles of range remaining supports the poster's claim of 25 miles of stop/start range. Maybe I misunderstood, but 32+27=59. What exactly were you trying to show with this example?

 

[TomHuffman]

At least in my area (Northern Virginia), there have been a ton of CHaDEMO chargers added in the last 7 months. Almost all the local Nissan dealers have upgraded to L3. This has really helped the usability of my Leaf when making longer trips.

Do you know if the L3 chargers are open 24/7 or only available during the dealer's business hours?

 

[rexki]

You will notice that the graph does not clarify driving styles from the test data (only "Range") and does not show worst case, only Best and Average. Very misleading for those who don't live in sub zero weather.

Now I think that you are missing my point.

The whole purpose of the study was to document the average or typical experience of driving the Leaf in cold weather, not to warn drivers that under, as you put it, "worst case" conditions the numbers would be different. Of course, they would be different. Worst case scenarios provide worse MPG results than advertised with ICE cars as well. An ICE car may have an EPA mileage of 30 for highway travel, but when driving up a grade against a head wind while pulling a boat drivers will certainly get a lot less than 30 MPG. So what? The point of an MPG rating is not to capture all possible scenarios, including the worst-case ones, but to offer the public a reasonable estimate of the MPG under "normal" driving conditions.

Finally, it is unclear to me how your example of driving 32 miles in a fully loaded Leaf, stopping for 4 hours, and then having 27 miles of range remaining supports the poster's claim of 25 miles of stop/start range. Maybe I misunderstood, but 32+27=59. What exactly were you trying to show with this example?

Not sure you are posting here in good faith?

The study is not really the point for extreme cold weather drivers. I and the other person are not idiots and I sure the other person I am corroborating has a much better story for warmer weather. I happen to be in the top 5,000 in CarWings for the last 2 months, Platinum and Gold so I know what I am talking about just a bit.

My point was purely the temperature, temperature, temperature is the issue. Yes also having a gasoline station with indoor warm facilities is an advantage the ICE driving world has, I have not abandoned that world either. My Example incorporated the temperature and its likely potential to change drastically enough that my ICE world driving habits put me and my family into a safety "issue". I had to go off route and seek electricity at 2 degrees F, yes it was 60 miles off the Lake from Downtown Chicago and not densely populated. The above numbers of making a 2*32 mile leg trip totaling 64 miles only occurred because of an additional 7-8 kWh? emergency charge giving me 37 on the GOM an increase of 20 miles on the GOM.

Full charge 15 degrees showed 75 miles (GOM) - 32 miles later and return to car after 4 hours now 2 degrees shows 27 miles on GOM - 2 miles later and now 0 degrees the GOM goes to 20 miles. Drive 2 miles out of normal path to Nissan Dealer we did not know of and if access to charger was possible after hours. Arrive Nissan dealer and plug up, crisis averted GOM reads 17 at start and we discuss trusting what number we need to get to on the GOM after an hour plus of sitting in the car charging and running heat so as not to freeze to death. We decided 37 was our target and left at that point - Leg home now was estimated at 27 miles. Arrived back home almost midnight with 5 on GOM. Everybody's feet were very cold, but seat warmers were on.

Therefore range with an extra charge on this multi leg trip with 4 hours of cold bath was 62+2 miles = 64
Subtract the emergency charge and preconditioning of 20+5 miles =(64-25) = 39 miles range on full charge at 15 degrees leg one and sub zero leg two. Sorry for sparing the details on the first account but that was not my desire, it was to agree with the other poster about really cold real world observations. Look at the color dots at -15F and how there are few other colors in this area of the graph.

These results were on roads doing 35-45, no highway driving, Eco mode, and usual 2 dot, never past 3 dots acceleration. If you were to have gone on the highway and drove 60 mph this range of 39 would have gone to best case low 30's!!

We are painting that end of the graph more clearly than the few dots there on on this very sub zero end. Cannot tell you how many data points are represented on the line in the far left very cold region? Again the graph is not the real point. Winter Mode in extreme weather the GOM can become the DOM - Death-O-Meter. There are not enough public charging stations yet (the reason this post is in this topic) Please plan ahead - I know I will.

 

[TomHuffman]

You will notice that the graph does not clarify driving styles from the test data (only "Range") and does not show worst case, only Best and Average. Very misleading for those who don't live in sub zero weather.

Now I think that you are missing my point.

The whole purpose of the study was to document the average or typical experience of driving the Leaf in cold weather, not to warn drivers that under, as you put it, "worst case" conditions the numbers would be different. Of course, they would be different. Worst case scenarios provide worse MPG results than advertised with ICE cars as well. An ICE car may have an EPA mileage of 30 for highway travel, but when driving up a grade against a head wind while pulling a boat drivers will certainly get a lot less than 30 MPG. So what? The point of an MPG rating is not to capture all possible scenarios, including the worst-case ones, but to offer the public a reasonable estimate of the MPG under "normal" driving conditions.

Finally, it is unclear to me how your example of driving 32 miles in a fully loaded Leaf, stopping for 4 hours, and then having 27 miles of range remaining supports the poster's claim of 25 miles of stop/start range. Maybe I misunderstood, but 32+27=59. What exactly were you trying to show with this example?

Not sure you are posting here in good faith?

The study is not really the point for extreme cold weather drivers. I and the other person are not idiots and I sure the other person I am corroborating has a much better story for warmer weather. I happen to be in the top 5,000 in CarWings for the last 2 months, Platinum and Gold so I know what I am talking about just a bit.

My point was purely the temperature, temperature, temperature is the issue. Yes also having a gasoline station with indoor warm facilities is an advantage the ICE driving world has, I have not abandoned that world either. My Example incorporated the temperature and its likely potential to change drastically enough that my ICE world driving habits put me and my family into a safety "issue". I had to go off route and seek electricity at 2 degrees F, yes it was 60 miles off the Lake from Downtown Chicago and not densely populated. The above numbers of making a 2*32 mile leg trip totaling 64 miles only occurred because of an additional 7-8 kWh? emergency charge giving me 37 on the GOM an increase of 20 miles on the GOM.

Full charge 15 degrees showed 75 miles (GOM) - 32 miles later and return to car after 4 hours now 2 degrees shows 27 miles on GOM - 2 miles later and now 0 degrees the GOM goes to 20 miles. Drive 2 miles out of normal path to Nissan Dealer we did not know of and if access to charger was possible after hours. Arrive Nissan dealer and plug up, crisis averted GOM reads 17 at start and we discuss trusting what number we need to get to on the GOM after an hour plus of sitting in the car charging and running heat so as not to freeze to death. We decided 37 was our target and left at that point - Leg home now was estimated at 27 miles. Arrived back home almost midnight with 5 on GOM. Everybody's feet were very cold, but seat warmers were on.

Therefore range with an extra charge on this multi leg trip with 4 hours of cold bath was 62+2 miles = 64
Subtract the emergency charge and preconditioning of 20+5 miles =(64-25) = 39 miles range on full charge at 15 degrees leg one and sub zero leg two. Sorry for sparing the details on the first account but that was not my desire, it was to agree with the other poster about really cold real world observations. Look at the color dots at -15F and how there are few other colors in this area of the graph.

These results were on roads doing 35-45, no highway driving, Eco mode, and usual 2 dot, never past 3 dots acceleration. If you were to have gone on the highway and drove 60 mph this range of 39 would have gone to best case low 30's!!

We are painting that end of the graph more clearly than the few dots there on on this very sub zero end. Cannot tell you how many data points are represented on the line in the far left very cold region? Again the graph is not the real point. Winter Mode in extreme weather the GOM can become the DOM - Death-O-Meter. There are not enough public charging stations yet (the reason this post is in this topic) Please plan ahead - I know I will.

I honestly don't understand the point of this post.

I don't doubt for a minute that the anecdote you describe is truthful. In fact, there is pretty much nothing you write here that I disagree with, except the really weird claim that "The study is not really the point for extreme cold weather drivers" when the study is entitled "Nissan Leaf Range In Cold Weather". Not sure what else the point of the study could be.

So, as far as I can tell, there is nothing in your experience that contradicts anything in this study or anything that I posted. I certainly wasn't calling you a liar or an idiot. I was merely pointing out that isolated anecdotes are not a good substitute for large amounts of data collected from a lot of people and that data so collected is a better way to characterize--in fact the only way to characterize--the performance of vehicles for the general public. Finally, I would note that your reported range of 39 miles is closer to the 50 miles in the study than the 25 miles reported in the post that got this discussion started. For the record I willing to stipulate that if you go out in a Leaf in sub-zero weather with the car fully loaded and with the heater and seat warmers running then you should not plan on going more than 39 miles without a recharging option. Sounds like good advice.

 

[desiv]

In fact, there is pretty much nothing you write here that I disagree with, except the really weird claim that "The study is not really the point for extreme cold weather drivers" when the study is entitled "Nissan Leaf Range In Cold Weather". Not sure what else the point of the study could be.

I could be wrong here, but I think the word "extreme" might be a point of discussion / definition for some people.

Personally, I think if I lived somewhere that had extreme cold weather (I don't), I might take any report that mentioned just cold weather with a grain of salt..
The tricky part comes in at where do you get to the point that you consider your own cold weather extreme.

I would definitely consider your cold weather examples extreme, but would you? Maybe not compared to others??
For instance, when I see something that says it handles "high winds," I don't assume I can place it outside my house. Living where I do, during storms 60mph is pretty common, 80mph+ happens a few times a year, and over that isn't what I'd call rare. Although I wouldn't actually describe my neighborhood as an "extremely windy" area.. (Maybe I should, but..)
I just have to remember that type of thing when considering products for the outdoors here...

Just a thought on this...

desiv

 

[bobskat]

a charger at every Walmart and mcdonald's should be enough

 

[TomHuffman]

What I heard today is about the best evidence I can think of that Nissan is really not really interested in serving the electric car market. GM will pay a $900 million fine to end a criminal investigation into its failure to order a recall of a faulty ignition switches.

This should put to rest all claims that Nissan can't afford to build a nationwide network of fast charge stations along the interstate highway system to support long-distance travel for the upcoming 200-mile Leaf. $900 million would buy 18,000 CHAdeMO chargers @ $50,000 a pop. It would buy 4,500 Tesla supercharger stations at $200,000 a pop.

The major car companies can do this IF THEY WANT TO. They just don't want to. Without such a network of fast chargers, a 200-mile Leaf is of only marginally more utility than an 80-mile Leaf.

 

[TomT]

One of the reasons why my next EV will likely be a Tesla... It was rather telling at our EV Drive event yesterday... Nissan was no where in evidence as a dealer or manufacturer and there were only three private Leafs there... MB, Ford, BMW and GM all had a dealer presence... Meanwhile, there were nine Teslas! Heck, there were more Fiats 500Es than Leafs!

The major car companies can do this IF THEY WANT TO. They just don't want to. Without such a network of fast chargers, a 200-mile Leaf is of only marginally more utility than an 80-mile Leaf.

 

[Firetruck41]

Was there a Tesla dealer or manufacturer rep there? Personally that would not usually be a factor in my decision making for a vehicle.

 

[tkdbrusco]

For a sub 100 mi EV the Leaf fit the bill for me. It was cheap, had significant market share, a lot of room inside, and the only reasonable priced replacement battery option, but for my next EV, I will buy a Tesla Model 3 without hesitation! Mainly because of the Supercharger network. Without that reliable network, there is no alternative. I will also be putting a deposit on one ASAP! Why? because from the looks of things, Tesla will have about 50K cars to sell before hitting their 200K cap for the federal credit. My guess will be that only the first 6 months of Model 3 deliveries will qualify for the full $7500 credit.

 

[TimLee]

... Without such a network of fast chargers, a 200-mile Leaf is of only marginally more utility than an 80-mile Leaf.

That is completely inaccurate for many people.

If my next electric vehicle has a real 200 mile range, it would support every trip by car that I have made in the last five years.
The 2011 LEAF with 40 to 60 mile range and 30 to 35 mile range in cold weather cannot support all those trips.
Much more than "marginally more utility".

Admittedly I don't make long +200 miles in a day trips.
It may take a decade or two of technical inprovement and infrastructure improvement before electric vehicles support 600 miles a day trips.

But to dismiss 200 mile range vehicles as insignificant is incorrect.

 

[tkdbrusco]

I completely agree with you Tim. There are a number of trips that I drive the ICE car for because my Leaf either won't make them or I don't want to deal with charging networks. Especially because Quick Chargers are both always broken or taken. A 200 mi Leaf would do nearly every trip I need to do. Even if I take an overnight trip that is a few hours away and can plug in overnight, its a game changer.