Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

[TonyWilliams]

Either way, the electricity can be 100% zero carbon and can refuel either an FCEV, a PH/FCEV, or a BEV. I like all of the above, thanks!

One step at a time, sweethearts, one step at a time...

And there's that "H2 slight of hand". Yes, the electricity can be zero carbon, and...

... so can the transportation that it powers by storing that electricity in batteries.

No hydrogen needed.

Your steps:

1) are more complicated, requiring all the bits of an electric car PLUS all the bits (and issues) of hydrogen (storage, no mass infrastructure, danger with 700 bar / 10,000 psi tanks in millions of future terrorist weapons, etc).

2) cost more money

3) add CO2

4) are far less efficient with electricity, regardless of where that electricity comes from. Not 5-10% less efficient... 200-500% less efficient.

 

[TonyWilliams]

In the rumored to be rumored category, via ievs.com and autocar:

BMW i5 To Be Hydrogen Powered?

http://insideevs.com/bmw-i5-hydrogen-powered/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This will apparently use a Toyota fuel cell system.

There are three major FCV alliances have been created: BMW-TOYOTA, DAIMLER-FORD-NISSAN, GM-HONDA.

I'm not sure where VW fits in this.

Since we know that at least one company of each group will use H2, it's safe to assume that it will be extended to the others within that group. The following have confirmed H2 cars coming between 2015-2017:

Toyota
Daimler
Honda
VW group
Hyundai

I suspect GM and Ford just tag along, leaving a few companies waffling in the wind:

Fiat / Chrysler
Mazda

And companies that aren't required by CARB to have ZEV cars... magically won't be making any H2 cars:

Tesla
Mitsubishi
Subaru
Land Rover
Jaguar
Volvo

One final note: officially, Nissan is the only "Big Six" or German car maker to bow out of the H2 game.

I wonder who might do that in the future?

 

[AndyH]

Either way, the electricity can be 100% zero carbon and can refuel either an FCEV, a PH/FCEV, or a BEV. I like all of the above, thanks!

One step at a time, sweethearts, one step at a time...

And there's that "H2 slight of hand". Yes, the electricity can be zero carbon, and...

... so can the transportation that it powers by storing that electricity in batteries.

No hydrogen needed.

Had you read the linked paper rather than simply throwing rocks, you'd have learned that the CHP fuel cells are not installed for transportation, but because they are very, very efficient ways to generate household electricity and hot water and room heating. Yes, in this instance, hydrogen is needed.

Your steps:

1) are more complicated, requiring all the bits of an electric car PLUS all the bits (and issues) of hydrogen (storage, no mass infrastructure, danger with 700 bar / 10,000 psi tanks in millions of future terrorist weapons, etc).

2) cost more money

3) add CO2

4) are far less efficient with electricity, regardless of where that electricity comes from. Not 5-10% less efficient... 200-500% less efficient.

You accuse me of sleight of hand while committing a most amazing logic error, and by trying to support it with a an absolutely BS scare tactic that's already been debunked in detail in this thread. You might believe folks here are idiots, but at the very least keep it to yourself as the hole you're digging isn't getting any shallower...

 

[AndyH]

One final note: officially, Nissan is the only "Big Six" or German car maker to bow out of the H2 game.

I wonder who might do that in the future?

After reading articles that clearly show that Nissan remains in the FCEV 'game', I'm going to call your assertion that they have somehow bowed out as, at best, spin, and at worst a complete fabrication.

http://www.greencarreports.com/news...c-about-electric-cars-holding-off-on-hydrogen

The Renault-Nissan Alliance is one member of a three-way partnership to develop hydrogen fuel-cell vehicles that also includes Daimler, parent of Mercedes-Benz, and Ford.

http://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/20...fuel-cell-cars-evs-remain-rosy-vice-chairman/

http://www.industryweek.com/technology/ford-daimler-join-renault-nissan-develop-car-fuel-cell

PARIS -- Renault-Nissan have signed a deal with Daimler (IW 1000/18) and Ford (IW 500/6) to develop a fuel cell which would equip electric cars from 2017, the companies said...Nissan has already signed a similar agreement with fellow companies Toyota (IW 1000/8) and Honda (IW 1000/30), and Hyundai (IW 1000/54) to sell vehicles equipped with fuel cells in Scandinavian countries from 2015.

2002: Nissan developing fuel cell vehicles with UTC
http://apps1.eere.energy.gov/news/news_detail.cfm/news_id=5855?print

Renault FCEV range-extender
http://green.autoblog.com/2014/02/11/renault-testing-hykangoo-postal-vans-hydrogen-range-extender/

You realize that Nissan and Renault have the same guy at the helm, right? Renault is likely to continue to field FCEV and BEV in Europe as they continue their Third Industrial Revolution build-out. Renault doesn't sell cars in the USA, so CARB is irrelevant in their process. And as stated in the Japan Times piece, Nissan is not under ZEV pressure in the US because they can keep selling all the ICE they want thanks to the LEAF.

The above probably doesn't fit into your CARBspiracy theories though, so feel free to ignore this. You'll want to cover your eyes in 2016, though... :lol:

 

[GRA]

I don't remember if this specific article has been linked before, although Andy has certainly discoursed on the subject at length, but just in case, via ABG:

Bibendum 2014: ITM Power wants to make nearly free hydrogen. No, really. Electrolyzers, Natural Gas and Grid Balancing are the Keys

http://green.autoblog.com/2014/11/14/bibendum-2014-itm-power-make-free-hydrogen/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I've not been following this subject in detail, and where I get lost is how you keep the H2 from leaking out of NG pipelines, as the molecules are so much smaller and this is a major issue (along with embrittlement) in why you weren't supposed to be able to use standard NG pipelines for H2. But I'm going to read the DoE report linked in the article and see if I'm any the wiser:

Blending Hydrogen into
Natural Gas Pipeline Networks:
A Review of Key Issues

http://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy13osti/51995.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Edit: Okay, the report does explain why this shouldn't be an issue at the blend % and pressures being talked about.

A related article today via GCC:

DNV GL launches HYREADY project to prepare natural gas industry for hydrogen; power-to-gas

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2014/12/20141210-hyready.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

DNV GL has initiated a global joint industry project (JIP) to help prepare the natural gas distribution infrastructure for the injection of hydrogen produced from renewable sources. HYREADY involves stakeholders from the natural gas value chain, including natural gas transmission and distribution system operators (TSOs and DSOs) and technology providers. The project remains open for other participants to join. . .

Successfully to introduce pure hydrogen (e.g. from Power-to-Gas) and hydrogen containing mixtures (e.g. syngas) into natural gas grids, the impact and acceptability needs to be assessed to evaluate amongst others the performance and safety of end user appliances, system integrity and integrity management, energy transport capacity and compression efficiency.

The project will run for two years and is split into four work packages; transmission systems, distribution systems, end-user infrastructure and appliances (both domestic and industrial) and the design of a hydrogen injection facility. The impact of hydrogen on the natural gas system will be addressed on both a component and system level. HYREADY will be based on existing knowledge: there is no experimental work foreseen to be carried out in the framework of this project [emphasis added].

At the 'still just in the lab' stage, there's this:

HyperSolar reaches 1.25 V for water-splitting with its self-contained low-cost photoelectrochemical nanosystem

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2014/12/20141210-hypersolar.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[AndyH]

http://www.hybridcars.com/toyota-announces-east-coast-hydrogen-highway-for-mirai-fcv/

Toyota announced tonight it will work with Air Liquide toward planting 12 fuel cell vehicle refueling stations in five Northeastern states for its new pending fuel cell vehicle, the Mirai.

“This new announcement builds on Toyota’s previous support for hydrogen infrastructure development in California,” said the automaker in a statement. “In May 2014, Toyota announced a $7.3 million loan to FirstElement Fuels to support the operations and maintenance of 19 hydrogen fueling stations across the state. The commitment augments funding provided by the California Energy Commission, and makes Toyota the only OEM to provide working capital for infrastructure development.”

SunHydro has solar H2 fueling in operation on the East coast already and has talked about the East Coast H2 Highway from Maine to Florida in the past, but I've not been able to find progress in the past 1-2 years. I expect this Toyota push will result in renewed interest and progress.
http://www.sunhydro.com/news/

NE ZEV pledge - BEV and FCEV
http://www.hybridcars.com/eight-states-pledge-to-put-3-3-million-zevs-on-road-by-2025/


PS - Nissan's had FCEV on the road in CA in small numbers...
http://green.autoblog.com/2009/11/2...-hydrogen-x-trail-fcv-lease-in-u-s-with-coke/

SACRAMENTO, Calif., Nov. 24 /PRNewswire-FirstCall/ -- Nissan North America, Inc. (NNA) today announced the lease of a X-TRAIL Fuel Cell Vehicle (FCV) to Sacramento Coca-Cola Bottling Co., Inc. Nissan, which began development of fuel cell vehicle technology in 1996, has previously used FCVs in demonstration fleets in Japan and in California through the California Fuel Cell Partnership (CaFCP), but this is Nissan's first commercial FCV lease in North America. The Sacramento Coca-Cola lease is for one year, with an option for two additional years.

Sacramento-based Nissan X-TRAIL FCVs have already logged nearly 300,000 miles in ongoing internal tests, with one vehicle very close to the 100,000-mile mark. "The future of sustainable mobility will depend on the simultaneous development of many technologies. Test programs like Sacramento Coca-Cola X-TRAIL FCV lease help us keep our momentum going in this arena, even as we're getting ready to roll out the new Nissan LEAF electric vehicle in the next year," said Nozier.

Again - it's not One VS. the Other - it's Both/And. Synergy rocks; linear thinking, not so much...

 

[DNAinaGoodWay]

The northeast states are working with NESCAUM - the northeast states air quality support team acronym is Northeast States Coordinated Air Use Management- on what a hydrogen fueling plan might look like in our states.

NESCAUM is also committed to BEV infrastructure, see: http://www.nescaum.org/topics/zero-emission-vehicles" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Monoculture is rarely adventageous.

But until FCEVs are price competitive, and H2 is produced by renewables, I'll be choosing BEVs. If they do ever get to that point, I could envision one of our cars as a FCEV. It would solve some transportation problems, but only if there were a sufficient number of stations, located where I would need them. Would have to be at least two in close range, in case one broke down. How many years before that scenario is possible? I'm guessing five, at least.

With H2, you would have a standard nozzle anyway, none of this CHAdeMO/CSS/SC foolishness.

It would be interesting if a small, solar/wind powered, H2 station could be developed, deployable anywhere, even at home.

 

[GRA]

Via GCC:

First Northern California Retail Hydrogen Refueling Station Now Open for Business

http://www.energy.ca.gov/releases/2014_releases/2014-12-10_First_Ca_Hydrogen_station_nr.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This is actually the 10th station in the state, but the first to be a normal retail operation (the others have all been demonstration stations to one degree or another). It's the first in the rollout of new H2 stations for the coming expansion of FCHV availability this year, with Hyundai expanding into NorCal and the Mirai being introduced. Scheduled opening date was the 19th, so they're running a bit ahead of schedule. It also means that from the get go, Bay Area FCHV customers can get to/from Tahoe, regardless of whether or not the First Element Truckee station has been opened yet. Naturally you'd want both for maximum versatility.

I see that Diamond Bar is scheduled to open on the 18th, but we'll see how that goes.

 

[TonyWilliams]

One final note: officially, Nissan is the only "Big Six" or German car maker to bow out of the H2 game.

I wonder who might do that in the future?

After reading articles that clearly show that Nissan remains in the FCEV 'game', I'm going to call your assertion that they have somehow bowed out as, at best, spin, and at worst a complete fabrication.

Andy, you keep lobbing the ball toward me and I'll keep knocking it out of the park:

Nissan Quite Optimistic About Electric Cars - Holding Off On Hydrogen

Bazinga...

 

[TonyWilliams]

You realize that Nissan and Renault have the same guy at the helm, right? Renault is likely to continue to field FCEV and BEV in Europe as they continue their Third Industrial Revolution build-out. Renault doesn't sell cars in the USA, so CARB is irrelevant in their process. And as stated in the Japan Times piece, Nissan is not under ZEV pressure in the US because they can keep selling all the ICE they want thanks to the LEAF.

Really, the same guy at Nissan and Renault? Gosh, it's a good job you told me or I might have missed that. Good job... bravo. Truly marvelous work.

Yes, the LEAF has done all the work necessary for CARB-ZEV compliance, and likely will continue to do so through 2025, therefore they DON'T HAVE TO PLAY THE HYDROGEN CAR GAME like the other companies do with their marginal EV programs.

Which makes it 100% of the auto manufacturers that MUST COMPLY with CARB-ZEV through 2025 will do so, at least in part, with hydrogen cars, EXCEPT for Nissan, which does a fine job with it's LEAF.

100% of the auto manufacturers that are NOT required to comply with CARB-ZEV have no hydrogen car planned. Amazing coincidence.

Maybe all those companies didn't get their copy of 3rd Hydrogen Revolution.

 

[mbender]

By no means do I feel FCs are sensible for light duty vehicles, but 'holding off' is not the same as 'leaving the game'. I'll believe they have given up when they leave CA's Fuel Cell Partnership.

Oh, and for readers who may not know it (yet), Ghosn actually runs three automakers now. Here's a good recent piece (with linked interview) on how he does it: Nissan CEO Explains How He Runs 3 Companies At The Same Time

 

[TonyWilliams]

By no means do I feel FCs are sensible for light duty vehicles, but 'holding off' is not the same as 'leaving the game'. I'll believe they have given up when they leave CA's Fuel Cell Partnership.

Certainly, you're welcome to parse it any way that suits your fancy, but Nissan doesn't think hydrogen is a possibility for 25-50 years. Even Toyota says H2 cars aren't competitive with EV cars until "2030".

Nobody is going to leave anything that has potential government handouts, and that includes Nissan. But that's an entirely different proposition than building a for profit ZEV today, and for the foreseeable future.

 

[AndyH]

The northeast states are working with NESCAUM - the northeast states air quality support team acronym is Northeast States Coordinated Air Use Management- on what a hydrogen fueling plan might look like in our states.

NESCAUM is also committed to BEV infrastructure, see: http://www.nescaum.org/topics/zero-emission-vehicles" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Monoculture is rarely adventageous.

But until FCEVs are price competitive, and H2 is produced by renewables, I'll be choosing BEVs. If they do ever get to that point, I could envision one of our cars as a FCEV. It would solve some transportation problems, but only if there were a sufficient number of stations, located where I would need them. Would have to be at least two in close range, in case one broke down. How many years before that scenario is possible? I'm guessing five, at least.

With H2, you would have a standard nozzle anyway, none of this CHAdeMO/CSS/SC foolishness.

It would be interesting if a small, solar/wind powered, H2 station could be developed, deployable anywhere, even at home.

Thanks for the info on the NE plan - I'll do some reading.

Sunhydro's stations are solar - and they're deployed in a 40' container. So the zero-carbon solution is already in the field in the NE - but they need more than the 4 or 5 locations even if all 5 are still in operation today.

No electric transportation in the US is 'price competitive' - especially with our fracking-induced glut and falling oil prices. But we have to keep pushing it anyway, because we're clearly in the twilight of the fossil fuel age and cannot get the replacement systems on the ground overnight.

It's mm by mm, but it's in the right direction, anyway...

 

[AndyH]

One final note: officially, Nissan is the only "Big Six" or German car maker to bow out of the H2 game.

I wonder who might do that in the future?

After reading articles that clearly show that Nissan remains in the FCEV 'game', I'm going to call your assertion that they have somehow bowed out as, at best, spin, and at worst a complete fabrication.

Andy, you keep lobbing the ball toward me and I'll keep knocking it out of the park:

Nissan Quite Optimistic About Electric Cars - Holding Off On Hydrogen

Bazinga...

Tony - while you're spinning around from your 'bazinga', you don't realize that I've already linked the 'source' the GCC blog post came from. :lol: Look familiar?

http://www.greencarreports.com/news...c-about-electric-cars-holding-off-on-hydrogen

The Renault-Nissan Alliance is one member of a three-way partnership to develop hydrogen fuel-cell vehicles that also includes Daimler, parent of Mercedes-Benz, and Ford.

http://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/20...fuel-cell-cars-evs-remain-rosy-vice-chairman/

You realize that Nissan and Renault have the same guy at the helm, right? Renault is likely to continue to field FCEV and BEV in Europe as they continue their Third Industrial Revolution build-out. Renault doesn't sell cars in the USA, so CARB is irrelevant in their process. And as stated in the Japan Times piece, Nissan is not under ZEV pressure in the US because they can keep selling all the ICE they want thanks to the LEAF.

Really, the same guy at Nissan and Renault? Gosh, it's a good job you told me or I might have missed that. Good job... bravo. Truly marvelous work.

Yes, the LEAF has done all the work necessary for CARB-ZEV compliance, and likely will continue to do so through 2025, therefore they DON'T HAVE TO PLAY THE HYDROGEN CAR GAME like the other companies do with their marginal EV programs.

I see. And you interpret Nissan's current compliance with CARB as being their only goal in life? You're still not listening, Tony, and that's unfortunate. You do understand that FCEV is ZEV, right?

Which makes it 100% of the auto manufacturers that MUST COMPLY with CARB-ZEV through 2025 will do so, at least in part, with hydrogen cars, EXCEPT for Nissan, which does a fine job with it's LEAF.

So tell us, Einstein, why aren't the other manufacturers, the ones that you say "MUST COMPLY" (ALL manufacturers 'must comply' but let's not get off track here...), just pulling a Tesla and stuffing a battery pack in a converted ICE? If BEV is so much better, and since it's all about compliance anyway, why even bother with H2 and fuel cells?

100% of the auto manufacturers that are NOT required to comply with CARB-ZEV have no hydrogen car planned. Amazing coincidence.

Maybe all those companies didn't get their copy of 3rd Hydrogen Revolution.

:lol: Yes, Tony, 1 of 1 is 100%. But even Saint Musk will have to fire-up Excel to make sure his CARB credits are in the black if he decides to sell an ICE in CA. ZEV is ZEV - it can be BEV or FCEV or wound-up springs - it doesn't matter.

Here's a rope - please tie the shovel on and let us haul it up. We can't stand here and watch you dig any longer.

 

[AndyH]

By no means do I feel FCs are sensible for light duty vehicles, but 'holding off' is not the same as 'leaving the game'. I'll believe they have given up when they leave CA's Fuel Cell Partnership.

Oh, and for readers who may not know it (yet), Ghosn actually runs three automakers now. Here's a good recent piece (with linked interview) on how he does it: Nissan CEO Explains How He Runs 3 Companies At The Same Time

When did he pick-up Auto Vas!? Thanks for that link. Fluffy piece, but I'm more impressed with Ghosn than I was before.

Exactly - holding off in the USA and the CARB and CARB-lite states is very different from abandoning FCEV. Businesses exist to make money, after all, so since Nissan's met their regulatory requirement with the LEAF, they simply don't have to bring a FCEV vehicle to market in the US. If by some freak of time and space the US actually adopted an energy policy, a climate change plan, and uniform vehicle standards, I bet Nissan could have a FCEV on US streets in lock-step with the other automakers.

If by 'light duty' you mean commuter cars, then I'd mostly agree. Even a Model S wouldn't be a viable option if I was still on the road doing trade shows - there's not enough infrastructure, the car doesn't have enough range, and there's no way it could carry my supplies/equipment. Most people doing shows use a truck. I was able to custom-build my display to fit inside a VW Passat wagon - and that gave me 700 mile legs, 5 minute refueling from a fat diesel (but mostly biodiesel) pump, 45 MPG, all the heat I wanted, and freedom to divert from Superior, WI to Mott, SD within minutes of hanging up the cell phone.** Since our light-duty fleet includes the ~45% of working pickup trucks and vans that simply cannot perform their duties if fielded as a BEV, though, we absolutely need additional choices.

** Yes - this disqualifies FCEV today as well. This car and biodiesel was as close to carbon neutral as I could get...

 

[DNAinaGoodWay]

No electric transportation in the US is 'price competitive' - especially with our fracking-induced glut and falling oil prices. But we have to keep pushing it anyway, because we're clearly in the twilight of the fossil fuel age and cannot get the replacement systems on the ground overnight.

It's mm by mm, but it's in the right direction, anyway...

Yes, I meant pc for me. ICEs still have the advantage, until the transportation environment changes. When it's ready to go over the tipping point, at least alternatives will exist.

 

[DNAinaGoodWay]

Nissan doesn't think hydrogen is a possibility for 25-50 years. Even Toyota says H2 cars aren't competitive with EV cars until "2030"

Definately a long term strategy. However long it takes, BEV and FCEV, the process is well under way. Fifty more years isn't very long. In the short run, BEVs have a head start and can expand infrastructure faster and more extensively. With better range they're sure to gain a better market position.

The real problem is that the majority are perfectly happy driving ICEVs, no matter what type of EV is available.

 

[TonyWilliams]

Nissan doesn't think hydrogen is a possibility for 25-50 years. Even Toyota says H2 cars aren't competitive with EV cars until "2030"

Definately a long term strategy. However long it takes, BEV and FCEV, the process is well under way. Fifty more years isn't very long. In the short run, BEVs have a head start and can expand infrastructure faster and more extensively. With better range they're sure to gain a better market position.

The real problem is that the majority are perfectly happy driving ICEVs, no matter what type of EV is available.

Yes, they are, which is why neither EV nor H2 cars are real competitors to petroleum powered ones. Yes, Tesla has grabbed substantial share in a few very tiny markets, and Nissan has certainly scratched the surface of the larger market. But, with few other auto manufacturers really into EV or H2, I think it will take another 5-15 years before those "other guys" take either seriously.

That basic premise of infrastructure is so key to the whole game, which is where H2 really doesn't have much of a chance, unless large corporations like Toyota and world governments are going to fund that infrustructure. Then, the price of petroleum has to exceed the price of H2, which isn't going to happen any time soon (or again, Toyota, et al, "give H2 away").

With all the other issues facing H2, the above is "prima facia". It doesn't matter if H2 is worse for the environment that EV, or more dangerous, or low on performance (well, anything is compared to a Tesla P85D... Electric Vehicle... available today), or can't economically refuel at home, etc, if there's no place to get the H2 "fuel" or if it costs more than petroleum... HUGE FAIL.

So, even in the BEST scenario in the USA, when do I drive an H2 car anywhere I want to go in the USA? Probably not in my lifetime, but I can do that today with any EV (it just won't be pretty today).

Electricity is ubiquitous around the world... H2 might not reach 3rd world countries at all in my lifetime. And the terrorist are going to LOVE H2 CARS !!!

But, in the end, H2 ends up "competing" against EV. Not really for market share, because I think even Andy recognizes that there will be ONE MILLION or more EV's driving around by 2020-2025 and maybe tens of thousands of H2 cars. H2 competes against EV's for government support (both rule making and financial).

 

[Slow1]

Sunhydro's stations are solar - and they're deployed in a 40' container. So the zero-carbon solution is already in the field in the NE - but they need more than the 4 or 5 locations even if all 5 are still in operation today.

I read the article linked above trying to understand Sunhydro's process. Article says they don't require any fossil fuels so I have to assume that (as their name implies) they are pulling the hydrogen from water. So given this, I wonder how much electrical energy is required to generate sufficient H2 to drive a mile? I'm just generally curious about how energy efficient this process is compared to just sticking it into a battery - is this a case of trading off refueling time for efficiency?

Related - IF they are in fact pulling the H2 from water, I wonder if they capture and save the O2 that comes out of it as well, that would be an interesting side benefit as I'm sure there are markets for it.

 

[TonyWilliams]

I see. And you interpret Nissan's current compliance with CARB as being their only goal in life? You're still not listening, Tony, and that's unfortunate. You do understand that FCEV is ZEV, right?

Ya know, I had a really witty "bazinga" to this, but this is a bit like you dragging yourself through the mud. Do you think that I don't know that Nissan and auto makers have OODLES of rules around to world to comply with? CARB is but one, but a big one.

You probably wouldn't be swayed by my assertion that we wouldn't be having this discussion right here, right now, if it were not for CARB. Nissan would not likely have pursued the LEAF without meeting CARB requirements (they had to make SOMETHING starting in 2012 model year) and US government EPA requirements, plus getting US government handouts, in addition to lots of support in Japan, and even to some degree, Europe.

Not rocket science. Not even difficult to understand.

So tell us, Einstein, why aren't the other manufacturers, the ones that you say "MUST COMPLY" (ALL manufacturers 'must comply' but let's not get off track here...), just pulling a Tesla and stuffing a battery pack in a converted ICE? If BEV is so much better, and since it's all about compliance anyway, why even bother with H2 and fuel cells?

Once again, you're factually wrong. No, they DO NOT all have to comply with the California Air Resources Board - Zero Emission Vehicle mandate. I've probably posted that within this very thread multiple times.

Nissan is the ONLY auto manufacturer of those that MUST meet CARB-ZEV that is "in it to win it". BMW may be, too. Both have H2 programs, but neither are likely to follow through with H2 mass market cars as long as they are meeting all the requirements with their mass market EV efforts.

Again, not rocket science. Easy to understand, particularly if you have a basic understanding of the facts.

:lol: Yes, Tony, 1 of 1 is 100%. But even Saint Musk will have to fire-up Excel to make sure his CARB credits are in the black if he decides to sell an ICE in CA. ZEV is ZEV - it can be BEV or FCEV or wound-up springs - it doesn't matter.

Here's a rope - please tie the shovel on and let us haul it up. We can't stand here and watch you dig any longer.

That's some serious "clueless" to even suggest that Mr. Musk is or has ever considered an ICE vehicle for production, or even testing. I guess that's all ya got, eh?

I feel like I'm kicking a dead horse, so time to move on to other topics.