Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

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RegGuheert said:
FCVs: For companies which would prefer to just make the minimum number of compliance cars and never actually deliver to the real vision of CARB, it's clear that CA has left the barn door wide open with the new H2 rules. The fact is, for a limited-production vehicle, the real cost is not in the manufacturing, but in the design, tooling, testing and certification. To comply at the lowest possible cost, you need to build the smallest number of vehicles, regardless of the cost of the vehicle. And CARB has reduced the impact of their mandates and increased the costs to the taxpayers with their new rules. No, Toyota, Hyundai and Honda are not "backing" FCVs, they are simply gaming CARB and therefore ensuring that the smallest number of ZEVs hit the streets this decade.
What you and a small minority of others continue to miss is that this is NOT a product created by CARB. This is NOT the EV-1, or the Honda Plus, or the other Ranger or S10 EVs. Neither CA nor the USA is driving this boat!

So - change "for companies which would prefer to just make the minimum number of compliance cars..." to "For companies that are ramping up to 100K per year quantities of FCEV, they'll continue to find customers in Korea, Germany, the UK, France, Denmark, Norway, Japan, and South Africa and not the United States..."

Quibble about CARB if you feel the need to waste your time, but they're in the business of promoting clean air and the only carrot they have is in play. Historically, it's worked pretty well - even for the folks that don't believe science and refuse to accept that climate change is real.
 
AndyH said:
What you and a small minority of others continue to miss is that this is NOT a product created by CARB. This is NOT the EV-1, or the Honda Plus, or the other Ranger or S10 EVs. Neither CA nor the USA is driving this boat!

So - change "for companies which would prefer to just make the minimum number of compliance cars..." to "For companies that are ramping up to 100K per year quantities of FCEV, they'll continue to find customers in Korea, Germany, the UK, France, Denmark, Norway, Japan, and South Africa and not the United States..."
So clearly the countries you have listed are taking EVEN MORE taxpayer money than CARB and funneling it into the construction of H2 refueling stations and into subsidizing the purchase prices of these ridiculously-expensive vehicles which waste natural resources when compared with the other ZEV alternatives out there.

Otherwise, since you believe these will soon be producing these vehicles in quantities higher than the Nissan LEAF, Toyota, Hyundai and Honda should put these things on the lots at my local dealers so that they can benefit everyone. But they won't do that because the vehicles are a LONG WAY from being affordable. The need to be sucking off the government teats in order to justify the design and production of such an extravagance.

It's too bad that so many politicians are ignorant of the basic physics that tells us adding additional energy conversions results in a vehicle which can *never* cross over BEVs in terms of efficiency. Combine that with significantly-higher manufacturing cost and you have a lose-lose proposition that only a government bureaucrat can love.

As I said (and Tony has repeatedly detailed for all of us to understand), Toyota, Hyundai and Honda are simply gaming the system to use these bureaucrat-created FCV regulations to minimize their overall costs while maximizing their sales of ICE vehicles. The bureaucrats have been duped and the taxpayers are being sold a "solution" that is nothing of the sorts.
 
Another step in Germany's Third Industrial Revolution process: Largest energy provider splits old-school generation from the grid management/renewables portion of their business. This is exactly as outlined by Rifkin and others well up-thread.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lP1jIlr8XFQ[/youtube]

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-...with-plan-to-spin-off-conventional-power.html
“We are the first to resolutely draw the conclusion from the change of the energy world,” Teyssen told reporters in Dusseldorf today. “We’re convinced that energy companies will have to focus on one of the two energy worlds if they want to be successful.”

In other words, the energy transition is happening as predicted and renewables+H2+BEV+FCEV is becoming the dominant paradigm in areas with a clue.

Unfortunately, the "areas with a clue" part does not include most of the US or our climate denier crowd, however. This is indicated in part by the number of short-sighted folks are bashing the only US organization working to support a strong move away from fossil-fueled transportation. Sigh.
 
RegGuheert said:
As I said (and Tony has repeatedly detailed for all of us to understand), Toyota, Hyundai and Honda are simply gaming the system to use these bureaucrat-created FCV regulations to minimize their overall costs while maximizing their sales of ICE vehicles. The bureaucrats have been duped and the taxpayers are being sold a "solution" that is nothing of the sorts.
Yes, inverse-treehugger, it's all a commie-liberal-"green on the outside, red on the inside" plot to steal honest taxpayer's money, because in the real world the laws of thermodynamics only apply to H2 and not electrons or fossil fuel or uranium processing. :roll:

German Chancellor Angela Merkel is a far-right Conservative Christian - not a liberal or progressive by US standards. She's also a research scientist (she's a physical chemist). She called Rifkin and others for advice on how to build a strong German economy for the 21st century. She launched the TIR in Germany, and in the wider EU while serving as (if I recall correctly) the environment minister. As a result, Germany has the strongest economy per capita in the world, and the rest of the world working to leave fossil fuel and uranium in the ground are leaving us in the dust.

If you think that the transition spreading around the world is about taxes or socialism, then you're as mistaken about this as about clouds and CO2.
 
AndyH said:
RegGuheert said:
As I said (and Tony has repeatedly detailed for all of us to understand), Toyota, Hyundai and Honda are simply gaming the system to use these bureaucrat-created FCV regulations to minimize their overall costs while maximizing their sales of ICE vehicles. The bureaucrats have been duped and the taxpayers are being sold a "solution" that is nothing of the sorts.
Yes, inverse-treehugger, it's all a commie-liberal-"green on the outside, red on the inside" plot to steal honest taxpayer's money, because in the real world the laws of thermodynamics only apply to H2 and not electrons or fossil fuel or uranium processing. :roll:

German Chancellor Angela Merkel is a far-right Conservative Christian - not a liberal or progressive by US standards. She's also a research scientist (she's a physical chemist). She called Rifkin and others for advice on how to build a strong German economy for the 21st century. She launched the TIR in Germany, and in the wider EU while serving as (if I recall correctly) the environment minister. As a result, Germany has the strongest economy per capita in the world, and the rest of the world working to leave fossil fuel and uranium in the ground are leaving us in the dust.

If you think that the transition spreading around the world is about taxes or socialism, then you're as mistaken about this as about clouds and CO2.
Why bother quoting me if you are only going to type a bunch of unrelated gibberish? My quote stands as is, uncontested.
 
AndyH said:
What you and a small minority of others continue to miss is that this is NOT a product created by CARB. This is NOT the EV-1, or the Honda Plus, or the other Ranger or S10 EVs.
Just for the record, I should point out that the CARB rules didn't bring about the EV1, but rather the other way around. GM announced the Impact (EV1 prototype) *THEN* CARB said hey let's make them all produce ZEVs.
If you think CARB has had little impact in promoting the development of FCEVs you are deluded.
 
AndyH said:
As a result, Germany has the strongest economy per capita in the world...
With respect Andy, do you have a reference for this assertion? Or what do you mean by 'strong'? I know Germany is up there, but a quick check on Wikipedia suggests that they are somewhere in the 15th to 25th range in GDP per capita ('real' or 'nominal').

Also, many factors go into GDP (an admittedly dubious measure of economic strength), so it's also a bit questionable (or misleading or disingenuous!) to suggest that the economic strength is a result of Merkel's embrace of Rifkin and his TIR.

And just to keep things from getting to heated or contentious here, I offer the following which might make one question anything that attracts Merkel's embrace! ;-)

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j6AnEjOQHvc[/youtube]
 
GregH said:
AndyH said:
What you and a small minority of others continue to miss is that this is NOT a product created by CARB. This is NOT the EV-1, or the Honda Plus, or the other Ranger or S10 EVs.
Just for the record, I should point out that the CARB rules didn't bring about the EV1, but rather the other way around. GM announced the Impact (EV1 prototype) *THEN* CARB said hey let's make them all produce ZEVs.
If you think CARB has had little impact in promoting the development of FCEVs you are deluded.
I didn't say CARB 'created' the EV-1, but many think that changes in CARB rules led to the crushing of BEVs. I think your assertion is a bit tenuous, though, as CARB had been pushing hard for ZEVs. They were ready to 'trap' GM as soon as GM publicly stated they could make a BEV.

edit... The best 'diary' of the 'dance' between CARB, US automakers, and the EV-1 that I've yet seen is "the Car That Could: The Inside Story of GM's Revolutionary Electric Vehicle" by Michael Shnayerson. It covered in gory detail the bipolar conditions within GM, the struggle between people within GM that understood that government mandates are the most effective way to make this type of change yet also valuing an "Atlas Shrugged" view of regulation, and the powerful work the auto industry did to thwart the ZEV mandates in private while appearing to support them in public. http://www.amazon.com/Car-That-Could-Revolutionary-Electric/dp/067942105X Highly recommended. /edit

If you still believe that CARB is somehow creating the global FCEV industry, then by all means please provide some data that supports your belief and we'll all learn something! I've provided volumes already that clearly shows that the US is not in the lead with this transition - and last time I checked CA, CARB, and the 'baby CARB states' are all contained within the US...
 
mbender said:
AndyH said:
As a result, Germany has the strongest economy per capita in the world...
With respect Andy, do you have a reference for this assertion?
It's up thread and came from Rifkin. I'll see if I can track it to a method and/or date.

edit... http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=333790#p333790
I transcribed this from a talk Jeremy Rifkin gave in Oct 2013 in upstate NY. There are a number of similar presentations on Youtube from various 2014 talks in Europe as well. Rifkin's an economist by education and experience, is a lecturer at the Wharton school, advises senior officers in both industry and government, and is the primary architect of the Third Industrial Revolution. He has reported very accurately in the past, has access to the required information, and has the background to understand and to properly report on the info. The referenced talk is outlined here:
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=330885#p330885

It's important to remember that Germany's been working the bottom-up energy transition since Chernobyl blew in the early 1990s, and Chancellor Merkel kicked-off their journey to the TIR in 2007 as the rest of the world was sinking into recession. In spite of the recession, Germany hit their 2020 goal of 25% renewable 10 years early and have revised their goal upward.

And lest we think this is a lot of academic patter, Germany, since the Chancellor's come in,

Pillar 1: they're at 25% green electricity already and they're heading to 35% by 2020.
Pillar 2: Germany's converted one million buildings in the last seven years - they're producing small amounts of [excess] green electricity and a third of a million net jobs. They've just begun. Denmark's doing just as well. So when people say: "It can't be done" it can be done. And when people say: "Well, show me!" let's take the number one economic power per capita in the world Germany and you'll see it being done right there - at near zero marginal cost for energy.
Pillar 3: Storage. The sun's not always shining...the wind blows at night and you've got to have the electricity during the day... The water tables can be down for hydroelectricity due to climate change drought... These are intermittent energies and we've got to store them. We at the EU level are in favor of ALL storage: batteries, flywheels, capacitors, air compression, water pumping, we like them all! But I must say we put most of our focus at the center of all these storage networks on hydrogen [using electrolysis and fuel cells]. Engineers, this is a tiny thermodynamic loss compared to bringing oil, coal, gas, and uranium every step of conversion and loss to the end user.
Pillar 4 - this is where the internet revolution combines with the new distributed renewable energies to create a nervous system for the new general purpose technology platform. We're using off the shelf internet technology and IT technology and we're transforming the power grid in Europe into an energy internet - a distributed smart grid. If you hear political and business leaders saying: "Oh, we like that smart grid" ask them what kind - centralized or distributed? Centralized means they put an advanced meter on your home and you get all the information only going to them at headquarters and it's all proprietary. That has nothing to do with this. This is an energy internet - a distributed smart grid. It'll connect everything to everything so that when millions of buildings are producing just small amounts of electricity and storing it as hydrogen... Then if you don't need some of that green electricity during the day or week or month, you can program your software right there with your own killer app from home and send that green electricity across an energy internet that in our case extends from the Irish Sea to the doorstep of Russia. Just like we create information, store it in digital, and share it on-line. Deutsche Telekom has tested successfully the smart grid across Germany. Storage is now in with E.ON and Hydrogenics as well - they're just putting it on-line.
Pillar 5 - logistics. Electric vehicles are here; fuel cell cars, trucks, and buses between 2015 and 2017 by the six major auto companies - this is a done deal - these are fuel cell vehicles. We'll be able to plug-in our vehicles anywhere, wherever we park across the country there'll will be a parking [spot] plug right there...plug it back into the main grid which is distributed and get green electricity. Let's say you're at work - keep that computer on. So if that electricity price goes up on the grid the computer will tell your car to send your electricity back to the grid. We're already beginning to do that in Europe [on a small scale].

These five pillars are nothing - they're components. It's only when we connect them that we have what we call the general purpose technology platform. It's an infrastructure technology platform. Do not make the mistake that President Obama made...he got bad advice. He wanted a green economy, he still wants a green economy, he spent billions and billions of dollars of tax money for a green economy - it isn't here. Because he spent it on isolated, siloed, pilot projects. So they'd invest in a solar factory in one state, an electric car factory in another state - unconnected! This is an infrastructure revolution.

The second industrial revolution all the industries had to come together - it wasn't enough to have the internal combustion engine. Then it required centralized electricity so that Henry Ford could have mobile electric power tools so the work could come to the worker so that he could build cheap cars and get everyone on wheels. Then we had to have the roads put in at the same time so people had somewhere to travel. But then they needed the gasoline and oil pipelines set in so they could propel the engines. And then they needed centralized phones to come in so they could move the wires to rural areas to create suburbs and take advantage of the interstates... And the biggest prosperity in history was between 1956 and 1988 when we matured the system, put in the interstate highways, did the suburban roll-out, put electricity to the rural areas, and then we peaked in the late 1980s, went into a housing recession. And then after that we lived off our family savings and personal debt. ...our housing and mortgage fiasco, and then we ended up with 14 trillion in debt in 2008 when it all collapsed when oil hit $147 a barrel. A short history.
.../edit

mbender said:
Also, many factors go into GDP (an admittedly dubious measure of economic strength), so it's also a bit questionable (or misleading or disingenuous!) to suggest that the economic strength is a result of Merkel's embrace of Rifkin and his TIR.
Germany's got two energy transitions underway - the bottom-up EnergieWende that's been happening since the early 90s and the top-down TIR which was created in collaboration with Merkel and Rifkin. Both transitions are resulting in a complete overhaul of the German energy system away from fossil fuel and nukes, and while the rest of the world has been mired in a global recession, Germany's not only working, growing, and continuing to lead the global energy change, but they've been bailing out their neighbors.

We, on the other hand, do not have an energy policy, and don't have a single (much less two) transition plan. Our infrastructure is is disarray, too many of our citizens don't 'believe' in climate change, un- and under-employment is way too high, and real inflation is harming a large chunk of our citizens.

I know which one I think is a better path...

edit..fixed typos...
 
A couple of articles via GCC:
Report: Toyota to invest ~$165M to triple Japan production capacity for Mirai fuel cell vehicle
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2014/12/20141205-mirai.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

CEA LITEN develops high-temperature electrolyzer for more efficient hydrogen production from water
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2014/12/20141205-liten.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The usual comments about lab demo versus commercial product apply.
 
http://insideevs.com/toyota-mirai-hand-built-order/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

For the US, there are only 3,000 units scheduled by the end of 2017. In Japan, where 200 Mirai were ordered, most come from government and corporate fleets.

First reviews of Toyota Mirai are indicating high quality and now we know why.

The Toyota Mirai is hand built to order in the famous LFA Works at Toyota’s Motomachi assembly plant in Toyota City, where $375,000 sports car Lexus LFA was assembled.

Toyota is doing one heck of a job fooling people.
 
evnow said:
Toyota is doing one heck of a job fooling people.
I guess they could have bought Lotus bodies and installed their hand-built batteries and drivetrain instead, but that's already been done...
 
Not that this has anything to do with a production vehicle, but it does shed some light on possibilities. Via GCC:
NCKU in Taiwan unveils hydrogen hybrid scooter
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2014/12/20141207-ncku.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
 
smkettner said:
BTW where does the carbon go when all the hydrogen is stripped off?

You know where it goes...

I'm sure Andy has an explanation how that is good for the atmosphere. We have to wait for the Fourth Industrial Revolution before we address CO2.
 
I vision a black pile of carbon needs to be scooped out of the bottom periodically.
You mean they would combine the carbon with oxygen to send it up the vent?
That does not seem like much of a solution :|
 
smkettner said:
Home units to make hydrogen from city gas to be installed in Japan.
Only $16,600 and the size of a fridge. Not sure if that is the installed price or a-la-cart.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-...me-fuel-cell-on-path-to-hydrogen-society.html

And to think so many complaints that an EVSE is $500+ for our EVs.

BTW where does the carbon go when all the hydrogen is stripped off?
Two key points here: "on path to" and "what's the source gas"?

Of COURSE if it's fed fossil gas there's fossil carbon. Doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that out. For those of you that really like taking things to six decimal places, heat and power the house with natural gas-supplied grid energy and compare it to the emissions from on-site reformation.

Now - for the brain surgeons (the rocket scientists are busy calculating the first problem) - how much fossil carbon is emitted when the feed gas is biomethane from the neighborhood biogas digester?

022-800x600.jpg

http://hestiahomebiogas.com/

Either way, the electricity can be 100% zero carbon and can refuel either an FCEV, a PH/FCEV, or a BEV. I like all of the above, thanks!

One step at a time, sweethearts, one step at a time...
 
AndyH said:
Zythryn said:
Guy, you are factoring huge gains for the FCEV and little to none for the EVs.
And according to science and the many teams working on the tech, Guy's covered it accurately. The reason FCEVs are launching now is that they've crossed the price threshold on the way down, and because the predictions and progress show(s) fuel cell development is going much faster than battery tech. .......snip.......
the FC hopefuls have been putting these on the roads since the 1990's as far back as I recall. How do you see 3 or 4 decades as going much faster than battery tech.
Moreover - since the least 'horribly wasteful' way to distill hydrogen is via natural gas ... how does that get us off fossil fuels.
.
 
In the rumored to be rumored category, via ievs.com and autocar:
BMW i5 To Be Hydrogen Powered?
http://insideevs.com/bmw-i5-hydrogen-powered/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This will apparently use a Toyota fuel cell system.

Via GCC:
Sandia study finds underground geologic storage of hydrogen could boost transportation, energy security
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2014/12/20141209-sandia.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Seems like much the same issues/advantages as for CCS and CAES.
 
GRA said:
Via GCC:
Sandia study finds underground geologic storage of hydrogen could boost transportation, energy security
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2014/12/20141209-sandia.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Seems like much the same issues/advantages as for CCS and CAES.
Except as we already know, for the same sized underground cavern and same pumping losses H2 stores more than 100x the energy as CAES.

Lord...I wonder how much money it cost the taxpayers to confirm what Rifkin, Germany, the rest of Europe, and the UN already knows? :shock:
 
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