Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

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Too late for that. My comparison is that the existing demand for gas and the comparatively low cost of installation in those days allowed gas stations to proliferate, 12 times faster according to the H2 map and Beckman's paper. My conclusion is that H2 stations will be hampered by high cost and low demand, so will not achieve the distribution and density needed to allow the market growth that BEVs will enjoy. There's little risk in installing a gas station today, plenty of demand exists. If they can get the MSRP of a FCV under $35k, they may have a better chance, but it will still take much much longer to build out a H2 infrastructure today than the comparative infrastructure of gas in the eary 20th century. So, low probabilty that a FCV will be usable to me within the next twenty years.
 
DNAinaGoodWay said:
GRA said:
http://www.fuelcellpartnership.org/carsandbuses/caroadmap

This shows growth of about ten stations per year. Doesn't seem like much. A common comparison in this thread is to the early days of ICE and how gas pumps and filling stations took time to expand. I haven't found a good source yet, but I suspect that those early gas pumps were much less expensive compared to H2 stations and so proliferation occured at a much faster rate. Probably less regulation in those days as well. So, reinforces my feeling that I won't be seeing a usable H2 infrastructure anytime soon.
Considerably more than 10/yr. One of the links that isn't listed on the CAFCP site has more detailed info, but IIRR they're expected to have something like 51 by the end of 2015 in California, 68 the following year, and then up to 100. And remember, these are (Ca.) government-supported seed stations; the real rapid expansion will come if FCVs succeed in the marketplace and can survive without direct subsidies (the same being true for BEVs). Toyota is also going to subsidize stations along the Northeast corridor, so depending exactly where they are and where you are in Massachusetts, you may well have usable infrastructure in your area.

As to the rate of gas station proliferation, IIRR I posted some data taken from "The Gas Station in America" upthread. The rate of expansion was certainly higher then than will be likely now with H2 stations, but then we already have a working car infrastructure in place, and the rate of changeover won't be anywhere near as fast because we're not expanding capability this time, just changing fuels. Of course, if cheap oil disappears for some reason the change-over to alternative fuels could come a lot quicker, but as the '$5/gallon gas' thread shows, predicting such changes is tricky.
 
DNAinaGoodWay said:
Too late for that. My comparison is that the existing demand for gas and the comparatively low cost of installation in those days allowed gas stations to proliferate, 12 times faster according to the H2 map and Beckman's paper. My conclusion is that H2 stations will be hampered by high cost and low demand, so will not achieve the distribution and density needed to allow the market growth that BEVs will enjoy. There's little risk in installing a gas station today, plenty of demand exists. If they can get the MSRP of a FCV under $35k, they may have a better chance, but it will still take much much longer to build out a H2 infrastructure today than the comparative infrastructure of gas in the eary 20th century. So, low probabilty that a FCV will be usable to me within the next twenty years.
If you believe what you wrote, you might want to evaluate the cost of living, the costs of early fuel infrastructure, and the value of a dollar, then carry it into the present.

Part of my family was in the retail fuel business. If you truly think that there is "little risk in installing a gas station today" in spite of all the station closings and the millions of dollars required to make a new station happen, then...well...you might want to take a break until you can clear your head a bit. :lol:
 
DNAinaGoodWay said:
Less risk than installing a H2 station. Lots of demand for gas. Minuscule demand for H2. Maybe when they can get the MSRP down, but not before.
Really? Do you feel the same for DCQC and/or public L2? How about CNG/LNG?

The beauty of this board is that there are professionals from all walks of life and industry. I prefer to listen to folks doing the work - and they've told us that an H2 fueling station is in the same general price range as CNG and gasoline/diesel today. Businessman's risk applies to the siting of course, but that's about customers, not tech or religious beliefs.

As for demand, 2016 is the scheduled roll-out of most of the FCEV equipment. It wouldn't be prudent to look at the first dozen or so US deliveries and decide that the game's over.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4QHHGHve_N0[/youtube]

;)
 
If, by 2020, there are longer range BEVs and FCVs available here for lease around $300/month, I'll be happy to compare them. The BEV will probably have less range, but more usable infrastructure. If the H2 is made cleanly by Hydro-Quebec, that would be a point in it's favor.
 
DNAinaGoodWay said:
If, by 2020, there are longer range BEVs and FCVs available here for lease around $300/month, I'll be happy to compare them. The BEV will probably have less range, but more usable infrastructure. If the H2 is made cleanly by Hydro-Quebec, that would be a point in it's favor.
Again with the Canadian generation. You seem to prefer your electrons with an accent, eh? :lol: You'd recharge from Cape Wind as well, right? o_O

Regardless of how we electrify transportation, doing it without fossil carbon is the first box to be checked off the to-do list. It doesn't matter if it's BEV, FCEV, trains, fuel cell/hydraulic hybrid, wound springs, rubber bands, or Mr. Fusion. That's 'gotta' be a given.

I'm glad there's a point of intersection here after all. Thanks for that!
 
AndyH said:
DNAinaGoodWay said:
If, by 2020, there are longer range BEVs and FCVs available here for lease around $300/month, I'll be happy to compare them. The BEV will probably have less range, but more usable infrastructure. If the H2 is made cleanly by Hydro-Quebec, that would be a point in it's favor.
Again with the Canadian generation. You seem to prefer your electrons with an accent, eh? :lol: You'd recharge from Cape Wind as well, right? o_O

Regardless of how we electrify transportation, doing it without fossil carbon is the first box to be checked off the to-do list. It doesn't matter if it's BEV, FCEV, trains, fuel cell/hydraulic hybrid, wound springs, rubber bands, or Mr. Fusion. That's 'gotta' be a given.

I'm glad there's a point of intersection here after all. Thanks for that!
You forgot one, Andy: hyperloops*, which I sure hope to see made in my lifetime. Ok, gotta go run the dog with my 36V golfcart... ;-)


* Oh no, that might start a whole new contentious discussion!
 
Yes, any renewables will do. I'm not against FCVs, if the H2 is clean. I just don't think they'll grow in market share until they get the cost down and build a lot more stations, and that will take a very long time to reach the density needed to make a usable network. BEVs already have a growing infrastructure, and it can expand more quickly, but they need more range at an affordable price to really gain market share. For the near future, FCVs won't be competitive around here, Toyota's East Coast plan added to Sun Hydro and a couple others still won't be enough, but by the 2020's-2030's that might change. In the meantime, FCVs will meet compliance and start up a test market in CA. How it shakes out in CA will influence the rest of us, as usual.
 
Last month I mentioned a section of the November C&D titled "Battleground 2025: The Fight for the Future of the Car", which contained a variety of articles by C&D's gearheads, and which I promised to provide links too when they were online. Here they are:

"Can we hit the target?" [54.5 mpg CAFE, and where various automakers stand]: http://blog.caranddriver.com/the-54-5-mpg-cafe-target-looms-large-heres-how-companies-currently-stack-up/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"What Replaces Gasoline" [BEVs and H2]: http://blog.caranddriver.com/what-replaces-gasoline-hydrogen-may-be-winning-the-zero-emissions-battle/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"Musk's Waterloo?" [Gigafactory, cost reductions]: http://blog.caranddriver.com/tesla-ceo-elon-musks-next-big-disruption-isnt-a-new-car-its-a-new-battery/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"Who will be king?" [VW vs. Toyota for the next decade's sales crown]: http://blog.caranddriver.com/vw-vs-toyota-fight-the-tale-of-the-tape-as-two-behemoths-vie-to-be-number-1/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

There are a few others that still aren't available on the website, but these are the most relevant to our interest here.
 
GRA said:
Via ABG:
Toyota gains ground in fight against Tesla as Japanese government clears new hydrogen laws
https://www.techinasia.com/toyota-tesla-hydrogen-fuel-cell-electric-vehicle/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

LOL. Toyota needs help from the Government to combat Tesla?
My, how times have changed.
 
GRA said:
Last month I mentioned a section of the November C&D titled "Battleground 2025: The Fight for the Future of the Car", which contained a variety of articles by C&D's gearheads, and which I promised to provide links too when they were online. Here they are:
Thanks, Guy! I read this one:
GRA said:
"What Replaces Gasoline" [BEVs and H2]: http://blog.caranddriver.com/what-replaces-gasoline-hydrogen-may-be-winning-the-zero-emissions-battle/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
What struck me, more than ever before, is not just that CA is wasting a fortune building hydrogen refueling stations, but that the carmakers which have no desire to build BEVs are gaming the system to ensure that they never have to. It was put clearly in the following (partially-incorrect) statement:
Car and Driver said:
Which is why, at present, no carmaker (other than Tesla) wants to sell one more electric than it absolutely has to.
It seems the writer cannot see beyond Tesla and does not realize that Nissan also intends to dominate the BEV space. But with that correction, the statement *may* be close to being correct.

So, the question is: Where does this all leave BEVs and FCVs? Here's my take:

FCVs: For companies which would prefer to just make the minimum number of compliance cars and never actually deliver to the real vision of CARB, it's clear that CA has left the barn door wide open with the new H2 rules. The fact is, for a limited-production vehicle, the real cost is not in the manufacturing, but in the design, tooling, testing and certification. To comply at the lowest possible cost, you need to build the smallest number of vehicles, regardless of the cost of the vehicle. And CARB has reduced the impact of their mandates and increased the costs to the taxpayers with their new rules. No, Toyota, Hyundai and Honda are not "backing" FCVs, they are simply gaming CARB and therefore ensuring that the smallest number of ZEVs hit the streets this decade.

BEVs: It seems clear that the upcoming rules from CARB will effectively minimize the number of ZEVs on the road. Since FCVs will continue to cost multiples of ICEs and BEVs for at least a decade, there will not be a push by any manufacturers to build them in quantities. As a result, there will also be no incentives for private industry to operate refueling stations. Those will simply be govenment-paid and operated by compliance-car-manufacturer-owned companies designed to collect the govenment handouts. What this means is that these companies will NOT be making any BEVs. This is likely terrific news for both Nissan and Tesla, but terrible news for both the environment and the consumer. It seems like both companies got in at the time when the BEV credits were sufficient to help them ramp up their volumes. As many of the other manufacturers bow out of the BEV market under the new rules, they should be able to continue on their paths and dominate the BEV markets if they can execute on their plans.

Simply put, CARB has bifurcated the market between those companies which will back BEVs and those who will back FCVs (and will deliver the minimum govenment-mandated quantities of ZEVs to the market). Only the BEV-focused companies will be ramping up the production of ther ZEV vehicles and begin to make a dent in ICE and hybrid sales.

Overall, it seems that by trying to enable a second technology to enter the ZEV market, CARB really has ensured there will be *drastically* fewer ZEVs on the roads than if they had let the market sort out the technology. Personally, I think CARB is really missing their mandate by doing so. It's a shame, since they are doing this at just the time when they were finally starting to fulfill their original mandate.

Oh, and to answer the question in the title: "What replaces gasoline?" The answer is still electricity for BEVs. No amount of government regulations can change the physics of what the optimum solution is. They can only distort things for so long. We'll see if FCVs will eventually win out for some fleet applications where BEVs are currently having trouble competing. But gasoline will be allowed to reign for a while longer while CARB fiddles with hydrogen.
 
Nicely written. Mind if I forward that to contacts in state gvt?

The market will still speak. Besides fleets, I think condo/apt dwellers, w/o any home charge options, would be a good segment, but only if the MSRPs come down. Even in the CA test areas, someone with a budget in the $60k range is more likely to choose a base Tesla, or a slightly used S85 as folks trade up to the newest version.
 
DNAinaGoodWay said:
Nicely written. Mind if I forward that to contacts in state gvt?
Certainly not. You may wish to wordsmith it a bit in a couple of sections, as I wrote it in the middle of the night.
DNAinaGoodWay said:
Besides fleets, I think condo/apt dwellers, w/o any home charge options, would be a good segment, but only if the MSRPs come down.
My thinking is that most apartments should be able to offer an L1 (wall-mounted EVSE) for each (or some) apartment for a small monthly uplift fee. L1 is suitable for most commutes. Any additional electricity needs could be met by L2s or L3s either on-site or elsewhere. Yes, that's less convenient than a BEV with a L2 EVSE in a single-family home, but then again apartments are less convenient in many ways, IME. (My son is renting a condo right now. I call it "the compound". :D )
 
Yes, yet I may have jumped to the conclusion that an apartment/condo dweller (with no EVSE access) would not have a $60k car budget. It's certainly possible. It'll be interesting to see what develops next year.
 
Fuel Cell advocate writes 10 questions for BEV advocates:
http://carswithcords.blogspot.com/2014/11/fuel-cell-advocate-strikes-back.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
 
patrick0101 said:
Fuel Cell advocate writes 10 questions for BEV advocates:
http://carswithcords.blogspot.com/2014/11/fuel-cell-advocate-strikes-back.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Previously posted, with replies following: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=14744&start=1500#p400745" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
 
Still waiting for one of my tenants to request a charging station. :|
As said most struggle day to day too much to think about EV vs. FC.
If they only knew....
 
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