How disappointed should I be that Nissan did not include liquid battery cooling on the Leaf E-Plus?

[jlsoaz]

At the end of the day I just look at it this way:

The Leaf e+ is slated to arrive this spring, presumably in April (my educated guess not fact)... it'll cost around $36k (my educated guess not fact) and still have a $7500 tax credit. By that time the Bolt will still cost $38k+ and will only get a $3750 tax credit and the cheapest Tesla M3 will probably still cost $45,000+ with a $3750 tax credit.

Possible negotiations and dealer incentives aside (which I can't predict right now). You just need to ask yourself if "active cooling", CCS, and better resale worth the extra ~$6000 for the Bolt and are active cooling, supercharging, better resale, and better performance worth the extra ~$13000 for a Tesla? Then get the one you think is worth it.

Me personally, I am probably going to wait until fall to see what the e+ discounts look like and see what kind of deals are available on 2018 and 2019 SV's at that point.

So even without liquid battery cooling, and even with less than stellar resale, the e+ may turn out to be the choice and it is not that much of a disappointment as long as the Leaf remains cheaper than the other similar options (I am not in a CARB state). This is because I like the size, looks, feel, and features on the Leaf and I suspect the e+ performance should be as good as you can expect from a FWD vehicle. I am also confident that I could drive the e+ without any range concerns until my kid is old enough to drive at which point I'll get my mid-life crisis sports car and the kid can have the Leaf.

some pretty good reasoning for buying a new vehicle.

Still, please note that my own way I've set up the question for this thread, and in general for myself, is that I'm looking at buying a used longer-range BEV. They are in short supply right now, and have not been in the market long enough to lose enough of their value, so I won't be buying at least for another year or two. I can't buy a used BEV that has ultimately shown itself to have poor characteristics in the area of range degradation, so the question becomes - do I need to cross the Leaf e+ off my list of hopes for buying a few years from now, or might it surprise me? How disappointed should I be that there seem to be signs that Nissan may (it is not clear yet) not have taken seriously enough the questions around thermal management, costs, and impacts on long-term residual value. Still, the e+ appears to have better air cooling than its predecessors, and undoubtedly there have been improvements in other areas. So: in my view, there is a chance it will all work out, though personally I'm not that confident.

 

[golfcart]

Reasonable way to look at it but the details matter. I chose the Tesla because I wanted a no compromise EV in order to not own any ICE cars, and I figured the Tesla would last a lot longer, thereby easily making up the higher cost initially. I also appreciate owning a sports car, today and supporting THE company working to advance sustainable transportation.

That's cool too. If I were single and childless I might do the same.

 

[WetEV]

Wrong. It matters, and it matters a lot, for any climate that is not cool or cold

Because you say so. That's so special.

You must be new to this forum.

:lol:

An unusually large portion of the posts are about battery degradation from all areas. Some worse than others.
Tons of posts tracking the charge, health etc on the battery. Not about if the issue is bad but tracking how bad it is.
Has been from day one with some slight improvement along the way. Issue is still large, praise is small.

I was here before the battery degradation was an issue. When I was a grumpy old man for suggesting that the LEAF wasn't the WonderCar!

The issue with battery degeneration isn't and wasn't mostly passive cooling. Sure, in Phoenix it is somewhat different. And yes, if you plan on frequent long high power use drives with multiple QCs in any climate, it might well be different.

 

[iPlug]

Some version of this applies:

We can say good applies to the quality/degradation of the battery in this case.

 

[golfcart]

Still, please note that my own way I've set up the question for this thread, and in general for myself, is that I'm looking at buying a used longer-range BEV. They are in short supply right now, and have not been in the market long enough to lose enough of their value, so I won't be buying at least for another year or two. I can't buy a used BEV that has ultimately shown itself to have poor characteristics in the area of range degradation, so the question becomes - do I need to cross the Leaf e+ off my list of hopes for buying a few years from now, or might it surprise me? How disappointed should I be that there seem to be signs that Nissan may (it is not clear yet) not have taken seriously enough the questions around thermal management, costs, and impacts on long-term residual value. Still, the e+ appears to have better air cooling than its predecessors, and undoubtedly there have been improvements in other areas. So: in my view, there is a chance it will all work out, though personally I'm not that confident.

Yeah, the thread got a little off on a tangent. That pretty much seems to happen after the first 2 or 3 pages on here haha.

I think you could make the argument that you'd be in a better position buying a used e+ in a couple of years vs someone like me who will likely buy either brand new and heavily discounted 40kWh Leaf or a brand new and slightly discounted e+ in late 2019. You'll have a better idea of the battery performance on the e+ and if it does depreciate rapidly you can get a good deal on a used one. I will likely buy my new car with no long-term degradation data on either pack.

Also, by that time, there should be Bolt's coming off lease that are under $20k. So it is a win-win.

 

[SageBrush]

Reasonable way to look at it but the details matter. I chose the Tesla because I wanted a no compromise EV in order to not own any ICE cars, and I figured the Tesla would last a lot longer, thereby easily making up the higher cost initially. I also appreciate owning a sports car, today and supporting THE company working to advance sustainable transportation.

That's cool too. If I were single and childless I might do the same.

I am married and we have two children. We find that a (new)Tesla + (used) LEAF works out very well. It also keeps the TCO of car ownership down to something reasonable.


All together, I paid ~ $50k for the two cars

 

[golfcart]

I am married and we have two children. We find that a (new)Tesla + (used) LEAF works out very well. It also keeps the TCO of car ownership down to something reasonable.


All together, I paid ~ $50k for the two cars

I don't live in Colorado with a $5k EV rebate, my wife doesn't want a used Leaf, and I probably don't make as much money as you. But I'm glad it worked out for you and your family.

So like I said, if I were single and childless I'd probably do the same... but given my specific circumstances a $45000 car is not an option. My employer installing charging at work would be the best option for me, a heavily discounted 2018 SV is a great option for me and a slightly discounted e+ might be a decent option...

 

[golfcart]

Some version of this applies:

We can say good applies to the quality/degradation of the battery in this case.

A picture is worth a thousand words LOL

 

[iPlug]

Model 3 + Leaf is an excellent combo for a 2 vehicle family who wants to go all EV and have a go to vehicle with minimal compromises (and battery durability) when long range is needed.

Not sure there is a more affordable way to pull this off at the moment.

 

[smkettner]

The issue with battery degeneration isn't and wasn't mostly passive cooling. Sure, in Phoenix it is somewhat different. And yes, if you plan on frequent long high power use drives with multiple QCs in any climate, it might well be different.

Whatever the issue, Nissan needs to improve before I can recommend LEAF to anyone even the cheapskates.

The issue goes far beyond Phoenix.

 

[smkettner]

Model 3 + Leaf is an excellent combo for a 2 vehicle family who wants to go all EV and have a go to vehicle with minimal compromises (and battery durability) when long range is needed.

Not sure there is a more affordable way to pull this off at the moment.

I think owning a BOLT 12 years will be lower cost than 4x three year LEAF leases.

 

[iPlug]

Whatever the issue, Nissan needs to improve before I can recommend LEAF to anyone even the cheapskates...

Really, so you would not recommend a Leaf to us for our driving scenario and price for our lease as I described prior in this thread? Please explain how I could get a better deal?

I think owning a BOLT 12 years will be lower cost than 4x three year LEAF leases.

So you saw my prior example of our lease costs. You can't compare 4x three year LEAF leases to a 12-year Bolt purchase as you don't get a new Bolt every 3 years with all the newest bells and whistles. What is the math on that fair comparison?


I’m not saying our very real life scenario would work for you. But you are saying the Leaf isn’t the best value proposition for some people and that’s not correct.

Depending on one’s driving needs, a Leaf, Tesla, Bolt, etc or some combination thereof may be a good fit for one and a poor fit for another.

 

[jlsoaz]

Still, please note that my own way I've set up the question for this thread, and in general for myself, is that I'm looking at buying a used longer-range BEV. They are in short supply right now, and have not been in the market long enough to lose enough of their value, so I won't be buying at least for another year or two. I can't buy a used BEV that has ultimately shown itself to have poor characteristics in the area of range degradation, so the question becomes - do I need to cross the Leaf e+ off my list of hopes for buying a few years from now, or might it surprise me? How disappointed should I be that there seem to be signs that Nissan may (it is not clear yet) not have taken seriously enough the questions around thermal management, costs, and impacts on long-term residual value. Still, the e+ appears to have better air cooling than its predecessors, and undoubtedly there have been improvements in other areas. So: in my view, there is a chance it will all work out, though personally I'm not that confident.

Yeah, the thread got a little off on a tangent. That pretty much seems to happen after the first 2 or 3 pages on here haha.

I think you could make the argument that you'd be in a better position buying a used e+ in a couple of years vs someone like me who will likely buy either brand new and heavily discounted 40kWh Leaf or a brand new and slightly discounted e+ in late 2019. You'll have a better idea of the battery performance on the e+ and if it does depreciate rapidly you can get a good deal on a used one. I will likely buy my new car with no long-term degradation data on either pack.

Also, by that time, there should be Bolt's coming off lease that are under $20k. So it is a win-win.

Having been through unacceptable levels of degradation on a leased 2012 Leaf (which already had unacceptably poor range to begin with, for my purposes), I am unlikely to consider getting another Leaf unless it becomes quite clear that the batteries are holding up extraordinarily well, after 50-100k miles, including in the hottest areas of the Country. I can see myself changing my tune if things get tighter financially, but basically a used Bolt, Kona EV, i-Pace, Tesla (of any sort), 2020 Soul EV, or 2019 Niro EV ... any of these is a big front-runner right now to a used Leaf e+ because of the liquid cooling and in a few cases because they were introduced long before the Leaf e+. The ones that have been out there the longest (Teslas, Bolt) are ones that I can mention to members of the Tucson EV association to see how their real-world experience has been.

WetEV has been attempting to somewhat minimize the issue, but I just think it's fairly clear that heat-related degradation in a passively air-cooled BEV is of legitimate concern to drivers in parts of Texas, New Mexico, Arizona, California, Georgia, etc., but also impacting drivers in other places depending on the extremes they see and their exact circumstances. It also impacts the broader market in that a vehicle may not be sold directly where it has been initially used. It's nice that Nissan is moving to active air cooling and air conditioning for the e+ if I am understanding correctly, but I will have to take a hard line for my own driving purposes that I won't be likely to get an e+ unless or until this approach proves itself effective, where I live.

It is perhaps worth noting that this is consistent with the reasoning I followed in financing the purchase of a 2013 Volt in 2017. I had followed GM's excellent seeming research efforts around 2009-2010, and it looked to me that they gave a darn that the battery would last well. I did not fully get the answers I wanted on battery replacement cost, but I got some. Also, at the time, If I recall correctly (and I may not) the few Volt owners I talked to seemed to report only moderate levels of range degradation.

 

[SageBrush]

It's nice that Nissan is moving to active air cooling and air conditioning for the e+ if I am understanding correctly,

You are not understanding correctly

 

[golfcart]

Having been through unacceptable levels of degradation on a leased 2012 Leaf (which already had unacceptably poor range to begin with, for my purposes), I am unlikely to consider getting another Leaf unless it becomes quite clear that the batteries are holding up extraordinarily well, after 50-100k miles, including in the hottest areas of the Country.

I've already said, in this thread, that I wouldn't but an air cooled Leaf if I lived in Arizona. I'm just saying that you'll have better options in a couple years all the way around and if you did consider a Leaf you can at least get a depreciated used one.

 

[jlsoaz]

It's nice that Nissan is moving to active air cooling and air conditioning for the e+ if I am understanding correctly,

You are not understanding correctly

Well, care to elaborate? What am I not getting? As of a couple of months ago, I see this (particularly starting around 2:01, and particularly around 3:20):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EnNGmessn0I
The 2019 Nissan Leaf e-Plus Will Get Air-Conditioned Battery Cooling, Not Liquid Cooling
23,851 views
Transport Evolved
Published on Dec 5, 2018

I'm not sure the video had it right as to the cell manufacturer, but the air conditioned active cooling system is described in some detail. It sounds like Nissan has already tried this in the e-NV200.

 

[smkettner]

Whatever the issue, Nissan needs to improve before I can recommend LEAF to anyone even the cheapskates...

Really, so you would not recommend a Leaf to us for our driving scenario and price for our lease as I described prior in this thread? Please explain how I could get a better deal?

I think owning a BOLT 12 years will be lower cost than 4x three year LEAF leases.

So you saw my prior example of our lease costs. You can't compare 4x three year LEAF leases to a 12-year Bolt purchase as you don't get a new Bolt every 3 years with all the newest bells and whistles. What is the math on that fair comparison?

I thought the math was about lower cost for basic transportation...... not so much on bells and whistles.

Point is the BOLT battery should serve you well for 12 years. Nissan battery not so much.

 

[iPlug]

I thought the math was about lower cost for basic transportation...... not so much on bells and whistles.

No, that was not the point. It is also not true. If it were, you would be much better off buying a well used vehicle, never buying a new Bolt.

How many people want to drive a 12 year old car? Some do, most don't. If you do, that's great. Find the right EV for you, but that doesn't make it right for me or necessarily someone else.

 

[smkettner]

My F150 is 18 years old. Still love it. Bought it new on custom order. All the original bells and whistles still work. Holding out for an EV truck. Maybe a Rivian but no way a Nissan with a LEAF battery. Continuous leasing seems a bit expensive.

Cheers.

 

[SageBrush]

Well, care to elaborate? What am I not getting?

Only available during charging. It is meant to mitigate rapid-gate, not be a solution to degradation