How disappointed should I be that Nissan did not include liquid battery cooling on the Leaf E-Plus?

[golfcart]

I shared your reasoning up until recently, and I'm sure it will turn out to be true some of the time. The threads about inner tie rod replacement were my first hint that replacement parts are not the simple matter we hope for, and of course that is just the mechanical parts that rarely need replacement in our low mileage cars.

Try to source an EV part and you will be ready to junk the car. Regarding body parts, there are no 3rd party parts.

There is a good amount of aftermarket support for generic wear parts, sensors, and suspension but I guess maybe there are a few big ticket items that are OEM only. I suppose it just depends on the specific part and the likelihood of that part breaking. To date my car cars reliability has been stellar and all indications are that it will stay that way based on my most recent inspection in January, but I can't say for sure what will happen.

 

[jlsoaz]

Nissan is building a minimum standard battery and BMS from the get go. Then attempting some slight improvements to minimize warranty costs.

And that is exactly what some people want, myself included. I don't need a Porsche 911T or whatever to do my commute and around town driving. I couldn't care less about my 0-60 time or if I can do 300 miles on a single charge. The Leaf is what it is. If it doesn't suit your needs then don't buy one.

Hi Goldbrick:

fwiw: IMO you have badly missed the point I made in creating this thread and the point that smkettner was making. The point wasn't about meeting minimal acceleration/range/performance requirements of the sort you describe. The point has to do with range degradation, related vehicle value loss and concerns about getting another Leaf if Nissan hasn't signaled that they have addressed issues which have come up in the past and which are likely to affect long term vehicle value if they come up again.

 

[WetEV]

If Nissan is truly designing the battery to just barely meet the warranty in Phoenix, AZ, .

Don't we wish. The design is for the battery to last the duration of the warranty in a moderate climate.

I think Nissan is cheap.

You disagree.

Warranties cost money, and add value to the customer. The cheapest warranty is of course, none, which adds no value.

Almost as cheap is a warranty that will almost never need to be paid, which does protect the customer by providing relief from the rare disaster. This is the economic sweet spot of a warranty, both low cost and providing worthwhile insurance to the customer. This is where Nissan or any manufacturer wants to be.

A warranty that needs to be paid to half of the owners is going to add more than the cost of half of the repair. In the case of an expensive battery, that's a lot of money.

Not only climate, but also types of driving and types of driving styles matter. Lots of hills will wear a battery faster, higher rates of discharge and more regeneration. Hot rodding, with fast starts, and DCQCs all wear out batteries faster. As do local factors, such as hotter and sunny parking spots. So if the average driver in the average climate just misses the warranty, all the average climate people in hilly areas will get a replacement, and all of the traffic light drag racers, and everyone with DCQCs and so on. Almost half of the drivers in the average climate will put more wear than average on the battery. And thus win the battery replacement lottery. As will all of the drivers in hot places, many will win twice. So then Nissan will be paying out for replacing about half of the batteries. The 2011 and 2012 battery might have been that bad. Or at least close to that bad. The 2015 battery is rather better.

Nissan is not perfect. But Nissan is cheap.

 

[WetEV]

The point wasn't about meeting minimal acceleration/range/performance requirements of the sort you describe. The point has to do with range degradation, related vehicle value loss and concerns about getting another Leaf if Nissan hasn't signaled that they have addressed issues which have come up in the past and which are likely to affect long term vehicle value if they come up again.

Active liquid cooling only really matters for battery life in the hottest of climates.

 

[WetEV]

The issue isn't with the car's performance - it's with the battery's longevity. Maybe if they told people in showrooms, as a matter of policy: "Yes, it has a 151 mile EPA range, but that's just for maybe the first year. After that it declines from 4% to 10% or more a year - especially in hotter climates." (And remember to cut whatever range the car has in half for frigid weather driving on the highway.) The problem isn't with what Nissan promises, it's with what they actually deliver in the longer term.

If the range declines at 10% a year, Nissan is buying a whole big pile of battery replacements. Nissan is cheap. Don't think so.

I agree that a more accurate way of specification of range would include weather.

Same for specification of range at battery warranty replacement.

Oh, that's "No Worries Range", which I've talking about for years. EVs should have a NWR range sticker.

 

[WetEV]

The Leaf is what it is.

Indeed, but therein lies the problem. Only a small minority of its buyers in the US realize they are buying a piece of crap.

Yes, it is not a Porsche. Or a Tesla. Elitism isn't for LEAF buyers.

 

[SageBrush]

I think Nissan is cheap.

Nissan sells a $30k car that lasts ~ 6 years in a moderate climate. That is not cheap.
I say 6 years based on 80%+ of new battery capacity

 

[SageBrush]

Active liquid cooling only really matters for battery life in the hottest of climates.

Wrong. It matters, and it matters a lot, for any climate that is not cool or cold

 

[SageBrush]

If the range declines at 10% a year, Nissan is buying a whole big pile of battery replacements. Nissan is cheap. Don't think so.

Agreed. More along the lines of 4% a year in a moderate climate like upstate NY. Notice how that fits the warranty ?

 

[WetEV]

I think Nissan is cheap.

Nissan sells a $30k car that lasts ~ 6 years in a moderate climate. That is not cheap.
I say 6 years based on 80%+ of new battery capacity

Didn't bother to read what I wrote, eh?

 

[WetEV]

Active liquid cooling only really matters for battery life in the hottest of climates.

Wrong. It matters, and it matters a lot, for any climate that is not cool or cold

Because you say so. That's so special.

 

[WetEV]

If the range declines at 10% a year, Nissan is buying a whole big pile of battery replacements. Nissan is cheap. Don't think so.

Agreed. More along the lines of 4% a year in a moderate climate like upstate NY. Notice how that fits the warranty ?

Upstate NY is as cool as Seattle. I'm past the warranty, and have about 90% of the battery life left.

Aging factors:

"Syracuse, NY " ,0.69
"Seattle, WA " ,0.69

Portland, Denver, Boston, San Francisco, Denver, Columbus Ohio, Albuquerque are all warmer, and still less than average.

 

[SageBrush]

Upstate NY is as cool as Seattle.

Heat related battery degradation does not work the way you think it does.
The approximate relationship is a doubling for every 10C. Put in simple terms, NY does not gain much from being 0C in the winter compared to 10C in Seattle, but loses dearly by being 30C in the summer compared to 20C in Seattle

So while the average ambient may be the same the integrated heat effects on the battery are not.

 

[WetEV]

Upstate NY is as cool as Seattle.

Heat related battery degradation does not work the way you think it does.
The approximate relationship is a doubling for every 10C. Put in simple terms, NY does not gain much from being 0C in the winter compared to 10C in Seattle, but loses dearly by being 30C in the summer compared to 20C in Seattle

So while the average ambient may be the same the heat effects are not.

That's why I compared with aging factors rather than average temperature.

 

[SageBrush]

Because you say so. That's so special.

It could be a lot worse, like being a loud-mouth in Seattle who thinks he is representative of the rest of the US.

 

[golfcart]

At the end of the day I just look at it this way:

The Leaf e+ is slated to arrive this spring, presumably in April (my educated guess not fact)... it'll cost around $36k (my educated guess not fact) and still have a $7500 tax credit. By that time the Bolt will still cost $38k+ and will only get a $3750 tax credit and the cheapest Tesla M3 will probably still cost $45,000+ with a $3750 tax credit.

Possible negotiations and dealer incentives aside (which I can't predict right now). You just need to ask yourself if "active cooling", CCS, and better resale worth the extra ~$6000 for the Bolt and are active cooling, supercharging, better resale, and better performance worth the extra ~$13000 for a Tesla? Then get the one you think is worth it.

Me personally, I am probably going to wait until fall to see what the e+ discounts look like and see what kind of deals are available on 2018 and 2019 SV's at that point.

So even without liquid battery cooling, and even with less than stellar resale, the e+ may turn out to be the choice and it is not that much of a disappointment as long as the Leaf remains cheaper than the other similar options (I am not in a CARB state). This is because I like the size, looks, feel, and features on the Leaf and I suspect the e+ performance should be as good as you can expect from a FWD vehicle. I am also confident that I could drive the e+ without any range concerns until my kid is old enough to drive at which point I'll get my mid-life crisis sports car and the kid can have the Leaf.

 

[WetEV]

Because you say so. That's so special.

It could be a lot worse, like being a loud-mouth in Seattle who thinks he is representative of the rest of the US.

I notice you don't bother to support your claim that active cooling is needed for everyone.

 

[SageBrush]

At the end of the day I just look at it this way:

The Leaf e+ is slated to arrive this spring, presumably in April (my educated guess not fact)... it'll cost around $36k (my educated guess not fact) and still have a $7500 tax credit. By that time the Bolt will still cost $38k+ and will only get a $3750 tax credit and the cheapest Tesla M3 will probably still cost $45,000+ with a $3750 tax credit.

Possible negotiations and dealer incentives aside (which I can't predict right now). You just need to ask yourself if "active cooling", CCS, and better resale worth the extra ~$6000 for the Bolt and are active cooling, supercharging, better resale, and better performance worth the extra ~$13000 for a Tesla? Then get the one you think is worth it.

Me personally, I am probably going to wait until fall to see what the e+ discounts look like and see what kind of deals are available on 2018 and 2019 SV's at that point.

So even without liquid battery cooling, and even with less than stellar resale, the e+ may turn out to be the choice and it is not that much of a disappointment as long as the Leaf remains cheaper than the other similar options (I am not in a CARB state). This is because I like the size, looks, feel, and features on the Leaf and I suspect the e+ performance should be as good as you can expect from a FWD vehicle. I am also confident that I could drive the e+ without any range concerns until my kid is old enough to drive at which point I'll get my mid-life crisis sports car and the kid can have the Leaf.

Reasonable way to look at it but the details matter. I chose the Tesla because I wanted a no compromise EV in order to not own any ICE cars, and I figured the Tesla would last a lot longer, thereby easily making up the higher cost initially. I also appreciate owning a sports car, today and supporting THE company working to advance sustainable transportation.

 

[SageBrush]

Because you say so. That's so special.

It could be a lot worse, like being a loud-mouth in Seattle who thinks he is representative of the rest of the US.

I notice you don't bother to support your claim that active cooling is needed for everyone.

That is not my claim.

 

[smkettner]

Active liquid cooling only really matters for battery life in the hottest of climates.

Wrong. It matters, and it matters a lot, for any climate that is not cool or cold

Because you say so. That's so special.

You must be new to this forum.

An unusually large portion of the posts are about battery degradation from all areas. Some worse than others.
Tons of posts tracking the charge, health etc on the battery. Not about if the issue is bad but tracking how bad it is.
Has been from day one with some slight improvement along the way. Issue is still large, praise is small.