Heartland Institute Building Anti-Science Curriculum

[klapauzius]

That's it you win.

--30--

Yes! :lol:

 

[AndyH]

Because if the climate was changed even a tiny bit due to the, ahem, lack of the "A" variable, wouldn't that prove something?

I really have no need or desire to argue the point so I will leave you with this.

Get in your Leaf. Drive to a cemetery. Find the part where the folks who died had their picture on their tombstone. Look at one. Look at the date of death. Multiply that person by 1 times ten to the seventh. Then think about the willingness you have to harm other people because they don't think the way you do. Think about the bloody 20th Century.

Rather than re-read my post, I read Proverbs 12:15.

That's why the "Heartland Institute" is open for business.

You.

It's clear that the folks at Heartland are open because there's money to be made spewing propaganda.

I'll assume for just a minute that you're serious about your belief that Stalin's purges should have been reflected in climate.

Let's look at the graph again for grins. Remembering that climate lags CO2 by about 40 years, let's look for any blip in the emissions chart for the decade of the 1930s. If we see anything, we can present the global temperature chart to see of there's a corresponding temperature blip in the 1970s. Ok with you? Excellent!

Hey - something happened from 1930 to 1935 - Stalin's fingerprints? Or possibly a global depression? Hmmm...looks like something happened in 1945 as well. Stalin 2 Return of the Gulag?

Ok - we've got blips - let's look at the 1970s temperatures:

Hmmm...there's this tiny blip around 1970, but this is an anomaly chart not raw temp data. Could there be another reason for the blip? How about this:

Awww crud - big honkin' La Nina with upward anomalies in the 'other than La Nina' years.

Sorry, though I'm a pilot and have taken a couple of undergrad meteorology courses, I'm not a climatologist (and didn't sleep in a Holidy Inn Express last night), so I'm not the best help for figuring out what data to pull and how best to analyze it. That's why I prefer to read papers written by real climatologists - not politicians, not journalists or pundits, and not paid 'think' tanks. In the nicest "Proverbs 12:15" sort of way, I strongly recommend you do the same - preferably before you select your kid(s) science curriculum. Let Heartland find their own mushy-brained audience.

cheers.

"It ain't so much the things we don't know that get us into trouble. It's the things we know that just ain't so."

 

[klapauzius]

I am afraid clippy is a lost cause...

An honest attempt at interpreting the Stalin comments is that we (the AGW proponents/Socialists) are threatening the good conservatives/heartland institute followers with genocide, because we disagree with them (Because that is what them socialists/AGW followers usually do).

I thought the idea that the Stalinist purges had an impact on the climate seemed more outlandish...but wait a minute...isn't it really cold in Russia? Maybe he is right? But then he (she?) thought there wasn't an A in AGW, so Russians murdering Ukrainians, would that be still anthropogenic? Or maybe, because they were all socialists, they weren't human, so the fact then, that after killing all them Ukrainians, it got colder in Russia wasn't truly caused by humans. So it should be properly called SGW or CGW???

Trying to decipher the brains of the AGW deniers isn't always easy...

 

[Herm]

Trying to decipher the brains of the AGW deniers isn't always easy...

Let me help you, but I doubt you will understand.. the common thread between Hitler, Stalin, Mao, other socialists and you is the lack of respect for individual freedoms.. for the common good of all. Its a common thread.

 

[AndyH]

... I thought the idea that the Stalinist purges had an impact on the climate seemed more outlandish...but wait a minute...isn't it really cold in Russia? Maybe he is right? But then he (she?) thought there wasn't an A in AGW, so Russians murdering Ukrainians, would that be still anthropogenic? Or maybe, because they were all socialists, they weren't human, so the fact then, that after killing all them Ukrainians, it got colder in Russia wasn't truly caused by humans. So it should be properly called SGW or CGW???

:lol:

Thanks for making my day!

With apologies to Clippy and Herm (and everyone else), I'm going to take a smile break for a bit. I simply don't have the patience necessary to talk thru this. Maybe in the 1960s or 1970s or 1980s we'd have more time to talk. But it's too late for that now. And I feel like the #1 "moran" in these talks because in spite of living the changes in Michigan's climate from the 1960s thru 1980s (and then watching my cross country skis rot away unused while living in Germany), I didn't put 1 and 1 together. So yeah - I'm late to the party.

Thanks for your patience, those of you that are on the ball. And those of you that aren't? On one hand I really understand - because we're all coming at this from different directions and with different skill sets - and frankly the artificial 'debate' in this country makes it really difficult to understand the truth. But please do understand that it's from a place of love and respect and not from a place of hate if someone that cares for you grabs you by the shoulders and gives you a 'wake the hell up NOW' shake.

But hey - if in the end none of this matters to you, I would be very happy to refer you to a dome manufacturer - as the commission will help me build my Earthship and stock up on a few more boxes of Mason jars and .223 ammo. Yes - when the water rises I'll get a boat and come and get you. But you're absolutely not staying in my guest room! :lol:

 

[AndyH]

Trying to decipher the brains of the AGW deniers isn't always easy...

Let me help you, but I doubt you will understand.. the common thread between Hitler, Stalin, Mao, other socialists and you is the lack of respect for individual freedoms.. for the common good of all. Its a common thread.

Actually, Herm, completely ignoring the use of that nasty broad brush, you've got it very, very wrong.

In this country we have well established individual freedoms. But they are not absolute. The First Amendment of our Constitution says for example that: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..." And while one has the freedom to THINK about their ritualistic bloodletting from 3-5 year old albino first-born girls, they are NOT free to practice that portion of their religion. Americans have the right to own and bear firearms, but they don't have the right to shoot me in the head with them. We have freedom of speech and assembly and protest, but cannot yell 'fire' in a public place if there is no fire. (And worth noting, certain types of speech are not protected under the First Amendment - these include libel, slander, and obscenity.)

You, for example, are free to believe that Bob Lutz or the people from Heartland are the Messiah - send them your money and build a house on Key West next to Lutz. But you are not free to force me to move there with you. And I'm not going to pay to rebuild your house when the water comes up - you made full use of your individual freedom.

People that believe the utter BS peddled by deniers are taking personal actions that they are free to take but the results of those actions are harming me and mine -- and you do NOT have that right. We need to draw a line and say 'this-here part is yours' and 'this-here part is mine' - personal responsibility is what I'm suggesting, Herm - because this here US of A has only 4% of the world's population but we use north of 25% of the planet's resources - and that's killing people in other parts of the world. Congrats fellow accessory to murder - how's that feel to you? So no -- you're position as quoted above is absolutely incorrect. There is a band of sociopaths that don't take personal responsibility for their actions, but it's not the 'liberals.'

Proven technique for taking in suckers, rubes and greenhorns.
It’s hard to improve on the classics.

 

[klapauzius]

Trying to decipher the brains of the AGW deniers isn't always easy...

Let me help you, but I doubt you will understand.. the common thread between Hitler, Stalin, Mao, other socialists and you is the lack of respect for individual freedoms.. for the common good of all. Its a common thread.

Neither Hitler, nor Mao, nor Stalin were socialists. They were all mass murderers though. Do you suggest that wanting to prevent a global catastrophe puts you in the same league as mass murderers?
That makes as much sense as comparing the girl scouts to the Mexican drug cartels.

For the historical accuracy of your statement:

Hitler was a national -socialist (for those of you who find this confusing, its a little bit like the right wing folks/conservatives here...)

Mao and Stalin were COMMUNISTS for crying out loud...

You know there were/are socialist Governments in many Western European democracies (France, Sweden, Denmark to name a few), which all respect individual freedoms and
have provided prosperity and great standard of living ( in many instances HIGHER than in the US) for their citizens.

I would not call myself a socialist, and certainly I am all for personal freedoms. However I am for limiting such freedoms when they have a negative impact on OTHER peoples freedoms. This is called common sense. It exists even here in the US.

Lets see how much you would cherish the personal freedom of someone opening a liquor store next to your children's daycare? Or gun-range next to your house....etc...

 

[Stoaty]

Let me help you, but I doubt you will understand.. the common thread between Hitler, Stalin, Mao, other socialists and you is the lack of respect for individual freedoms.. for the common good of all. Its a common thread.

All this proves is that Godwin's law is intact:

"As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"There is a tradition in many newsgroups and other Internet discussion forums that once such a comparison is made, the thread is finished and whoever mentioned the Nazis has automatically lost whatever debate was in progress."

Looks like Clippy and Herm have lost this one. :lol:

 

[Fabio]

Forget Europeans socialists, even conservative European governments, like the one in Germany led by the CDU, are way to the left of the current crop of GOP (and, in many aspects, they are even to the left of the Democratic Party).
Tea Parties would consider chancellor Angela Merkel a baby-killer socialist, since she (like her party) supports universal health care and fights actively (sadly against the US government) to take measures against AGW.

Anyone who takes the time to get educated about the rest of the world, realizes how much the political center has shifted to the right in the US.
Cap & Trade and the current Health Care systems, were both proposed by the right in the 90s.

You know there were/are socialist Governments in many Western European democracies (France, Sweden, Denmark to name a few), which all respect individual freedoms and
have provided prosperity and great standard of living ( in many instances HIGHER than in the US) for their citizens.

 

[klapauzius]

Anyone who takes the time to get educated about the rest of the world, realizes how much the political center has shifted to the right in the US.
Cap & Trade and the current Health Care systems, were both proposed by the right in the 90s.

Makes you wonder why...historically, extreme right governments have never made the poor/middle class happy. Take a look at all the current/former banana republics south of the US. But I guess the problem is that most conservatives around here consider themselves as "moderate". Or maybe we have moved past that and people are actually proud of their extreme positions?

 

[AndyH]

Forget Europeans socialists, even conservative European governments, like the one in Germany led by the CDU, are way to the left of the current crop of GOP (and, in many aspects, they are even to the left of the Democratic Party).
Tea Parties would consider chancellor Angela Merkel a baby-killer socialist, since she (like her party) supports universal health care and fights actively (sadly against the US government) to take measures against AGW.

Anyone who takes the time to get educated about the rest of the world, realizes how much the political center has shifted to the right in the US.
Cap & Trade and the current Health Care systems, were both proposed by the right in the 90s.

Ain't THAT the truth!

Germany 2005:

EU 2008:

2004 Presidential candidates:

2008 Presidential Candidates:

2012 Presidential Candidates:

http://www.politicalcompass.org/uselection2012

 

[AndyH]

James Hansen and TED - Predictions requested by Herm hand-delivered.

http://www.ted.com/talks/james_hansen_why_i_must_speak_out_about_climate_change.html

He asks, "What do I know that would cause me -- a reticent, midwestern scientist -- to get myself arrested in front of the White House protesting? And what would you do if you knew what I know?"

TED rocks. Bogus debates, not so much.

 

[klapauzius]

I think these numbers and graphs do not reflect reality.
Especially as far as Germany is concerned, the placement of political parties seems arbitrary
and totally out of place.

CDU and SPD essentially make the same politics and they would be both well towards the center.
The liberal democrats (FDP) are pro business for sure, but not libertarian....Besides, how do you measure a political parties alignment objectively anyway?

By all means the traditional German parties (the two big ones , CDU and SPD and the FDP) should be
much closer to each other in the "alignment" chart. Remember that over the 63 years of existence of the Federal Republic of Germany these 3 parties have formed
coalition governments in all possible combinations.

 

[Fabio]

SPD and CDU disagree when it comes to social issues, Angela Merkel's party is more conservative than the SPD (Gay rights, right to choose).

I think these numbers and graphs do not reflect reality.
Especially as far as Germany is concerned, the placement of political parties seems arbitrary
and totally out of place.

CDU and SPD essentially make the same politics and they would be both well towards the center.
The liberal democrats (FDP) are pro business for sure, but not libertarian....Besides, how do you measure a political parties alignment objectively anyway?

By all means the traditional German parties (the two big ones , CDU and SPD and the FDP) should be
much closer to each other in the "alignment" chart. Remember that over the 63 years of existence of the Federal Republic of Germany these 3 parties have formed
coalition governments in all possible combinations.

 

[AndyH]

I think these numbers and graphs do not reflect reality.
Especially as far as Germany is concerned, the placement of political parties seems arbitrary
and totally out of place.

The graphs were constructed from the message of political candidates, not necessarily from actual performance once in office. Maybe that's the discrepancy?

The 2012 US info is new - I knew that President Obama moved right, but didn't realize how far the entire pack has moved! :shock:

 

[klapauzius]

A message based metric I can believe...

It seems the dumber the electorate the whackier the message

 

[Fabio]

For 2012 US election, our President's position is based on his actions in office in the last 3 years, while for the candidates they are based on their message.

A message based metric I can believe...

It seems the dumber the electorate the whackier the message

 

[thankyouOB]

Gasland, the movie, on HBO now.
You know, the one where a whole lotta folks in different homes show you how they can light their home faucets on fire when they turn them on to get water; and where the industry says it is all good.

 

[klapauzius]

I doubt that Obama and Bush Jr. would be similar in positions?
Do you think?
I also dont think the President is that far right/authoritarian as the graph suggests?
I would agree, that compared to most European (EU) politicians he is more center right than left.

 

[AndyH]

Another weapon in the anti-science arsenal: The Yale Forum on Climate Change and the Media

First video - an interview with Michael Mann - "Mr. Hockey Stick"

http://www.yaleclimatemediaforum.org/2012/03/michael-mann-the-hockey-stick-and-the-climate-wars/