Goodbye Nissan Leaf, hello Kia Soul EV

[Valdemar]

Would you hire a bad general contractor again? Similar situation with Nissan for many of us here. Logical? Maybe. Emotional? Certainly.

 

[TonyWilliams]

... untested Kia clocking in at the same mileage, and reportedly only 3 kWh more juice, you are supposedly able to get an extra 13 miles of range (while the EPA estimated difference says you'll get more like an extra 9 miles of range). Is that really worth the effort to switch cars and try something new and untested?

Not quite:

LEAF - 21kWh usable - 24kWh advertised

Soul - 27kWh usable - 27kWh advertised (actual size, about 31kWh)


about 28.5% larger usable capacity on the Soul EV, when new.


Range when new at 100km/h (62mph):

LEAF - 88 miles

Soul - 102 miles

14 more miles in identical conditions, or 15.9% greater range

 

[Deleted member 14045]

... untested Kia clocking in at the same mileage, and reportedly only 3 kWh more juice, you are supposedly able to get an extra 13 miles of range (while the EPA estimated difference says you'll get more like an extra 9 miles of range). Is that really worth the effort to switch cars and try something new and untested?

Not quite:

LEAF - 21kWh usable - 24kWh advertised

Soul - 27kWh usable - 27kWh advertised (actual size, about 31kWh)


about 28.5% larger usable capacity on the Soul EV, when new.

Then maybe you can explain why the EPA rating for the Leaf is 84 miles, while the one for the Soul is 93? I'm not arguing the point. Honestly. I'm just curious how one manufacturer gets treated better than another with respect to this rating system.

 

[TonyWilliams]

Then maybe you can explain why the EPA rating for the Leaf is 84 miles, while the one for the Soul is 93? I'm not arguing the point. Honestly. I'm just curious how one manufacturer gets treated better than another with respect to this rating system.

EPA does a different 5 part test. The result is 9 miles more, however that is 10.7% improvement



Range when new at 100km/h (62mph):

LEAF - 88 miles

Soul - 102 miles

14 more miles in identical conditions, or 15.9% greater range at 62mph


So, Soul EV is:

10.7% improved on EPA
15.9% improved on 62mph test
28.6% improved useable battery size

 

[Deleted member 14045]

14 more miles in identical conditions, or 15.9% greater range at 62mph

OK then, is it worth the risk of switching in order to gain 14 more miles of range? I could see maybe double the range, but 14 miles? That's nothing more than a Saturday morning run at the beach.

 

[NasGoreList]

Our m/kW is at 4.3 My Leaf was 3.8 Now that is a 100-mile car. You may begin to cry now.

Newbie alright it is. You should have been around in April 2010 when we all signed up for a 100-mile Leaf. You do have a new batt chemistry there. However, jury's out on that one, just as it was in 2011 when we started driving our 1st new Leafs.

You can only hope Nissan did its homework this time around. They most certainly did not do it then. Threw it out on the market with bad chemistry and grossly overstated range.

I'd hate to be the newbie holding up this thread that maybe should otherwise just die, but I nearly lost my license because of my heavy foot (too many tickets), and yet my 2015 Leaf is showing 4.3 m/kWh, on that little gizmo on the dash, and my lease payment is $249/mo, the same as advertised for the Kia Soul. So, with your new, untested Kia clocking in at the same mileage, and reportedly only 3 kWh more juice, you are supposedly able to get an extra 13 miles of range (while the EPA estimated difference says you'll get more like an extra 9 miles of range). Is that really worth the effort to switch cars and try something new and untested?

It seems to me that this is a little like trying to chase the best performing mutual fund, where as soon as you sell one and buy the other, the old one starts performing better...

It is more like he is trying to rake the leaves with shovel and gets all upset when it goes poorly :mrgreen:

 

[Valdemar]

14 more miles in identical conditions, or 15.9% greater range at 62mph

OK then, is it worth the risk of switching in order to gain 14 more miles of range? I could see maybe double the range, but 14 miles? That's nothing more than a Saturday morning run at the beach.

If 14 miles are enough to avoid an additional daily charging session over a 3 year period, why not?

 

[edatoakrun]

="ILETRIC" You should have been around in April 2010 when we all signed up for a 100-mile Leaf...

Well, in April 2010 I signed up for A BEV which would obviously have range varying with driving conditions.

The disclosure I signed when I picked mine up, put the LEAF's Highway range at 70 miles, driving 55 mph on a 95 F day with the AC on.

Why would you expect to be able to drive an 84 mile freeway commute in a LEAF without recharging when new, much less after you put over 50 k miles on the battery?

="ILETRIC You can only hope Nissan did its homework this time around...

I hope you did yours.

I would be sad to see you disappoint yourself, again.

 

[Deleted member 14045]

Let's face it. We all just have Tesla envy

 

[asimba2]

Let's face it. We all just have Tesla envy

Or put $69,000 in investments and put commuting mileage on a Leaf instead.

 

[Deleted member 14045]

Let's face it. We all just have Tesla envy

Or put $69,000 in investments and put commuting mileage on a Leaf instead.

In these market conditions, the Tesla might prove to be a better investment.

 

[nerys]

If it were an identical choice between leaf or soul at the same price.

That 14 miles even 9 miles is a pretty big deal to me.

Alas they are not equal at least not till i can get a used soul for $18k

it is disengenious to say 8 or 14 miles is not a big deal

When your range is 600 miles (my geo) then sure 10 even 20 miles is nothing

When your range is 70 no heat at 21'f outside. Well 9 miles could be a pretty big deal if your commute is that long. That extra 6 kwh would let me use the heat and still make my drive.

And at my 45mph commute i would get 14 or more extra miles. (18 at 3m/kwh)

I can dream. Very happy with my leaf. Just wish it had a tiny bit more capacity.

 

[Nubo]

14 more miles in identical conditions, or 15.9% greater range at 62mph

OK then, is it worth the risk of switching in order to gain 14 more miles of range? I could see maybe double the range, but 14 miles? That's nothing more than a Saturday morning run at the beach.

It's not the intrinsic value of 14 miles of transportation. If your commute is at the extreme margin of what the LEAF can do, then 14 extra miles makes a huge difference. If your commute is well within the LEAF's range then it's not necessarily worth anything to you.

It's like painting a large room. A quart of paint doesn't sound like much. But if you end up with 2 square feet of unpainted wall suddenly that extra quart becomes very important.

 

[evnow]

If your commute is at the extreme margin of what the LEAF can do, then 14 extra miles makes a huge difference.

If you are working with extreme margin of Leaf ... that 14 miles may still be too close for comfort. You'll still have a lot of range anxiety - esp. in adverse conditions.

Personally I'd not switch to an EV with less than 150 miles EPA range (or nearly double of what Leaf has). That would give reliable 100 miles in adverse conditions.

update : I should add that those who fall exactly between 84 and 98 as the "needed range" is a vanishingly small group.

 

[dhanson865]

If your commute is at the extreme margin of what the LEAF can do, then 14 extra miles makes a huge difference.

If you are working with extreme margin of Leaf ... that 14 miles may still be too close for comfort. You'll still have a lot of range anxiety - esp. in adverse conditions.

Personally I'd not switch to an EV with less than 150 miles EPA range (or nearly double of what Leaf has). That would give reliable 100 miles in adverse conditions.

update : I should add that those who fall exactly between 84 and 98 as the "needed range" is a vanishingly small group.

And if you are comparing a 3 bar loser leaf to a comparably degraded Soul EV?

If the leaf is 50 or 60 miles range and the degraded Soul EV is ?

It's not just the maximum range as a new vehicle that matters, every bit of range added on the front end is the possibility that the car is still viable after degradation.

You could argue that we don't know the degradation rate for the Soul EV but I'd argue that the degradation of the 2011 leaf battery pack is the worst on record and thus the mark to beat. I'll give the Soul EV the benefit of the doubt for now.

 

[nerys]

well not fair the compare an 11 leaf with a 15 soul

a valid comparison would be 15 leaf with 15 soul.

though all being equal (if that were possible) I would pick the larger battery every time

 

[Deleted member 14045]

I guess I didn't realize how many EV drivers were pushing the envelope. For me, until I had a safe margin for error in the range, and there was a car that had been on the market for a while, I didn't even consider an EV. It wasn't even in the cards. And even now, I still keep the GMC Yukon handy for anything other than trips straight to and from work, in the carpool lane. Taking a road trip in a Leaf seems like it would be nothing but grief. And even one in a Tesla would be a mess(la) :lol: The Teslas need more burn in before I would trust them on a long trip.

 

[evnow]

You could argue that we don't know the degradation rate for the Soul EV but I'd argue that the degradation of the 2011 leaf battery pack is the worst on record and thus the mark to beat. I'll give the Soul EV the benefit of the doubt for now.

But why are comparing '15 Soul EV to '11 Leaf ?

Yes, if you have a degraded '11 Leaf, Soul might be better. But, so is '15 Leaf.

As I said - people who dearly need those 14 miles is a niche within a niche within a niche.

 

[Deleted member 14045]

Well, I have it on good authority that the Phinergy retrofit will only work with the Nissan Leaf. What's 14 extra miles when you can get 1000 extra miles? :mrgreen:

I'm kidding, of course. I have no insight. I'm just starting rumors for the fun of it.

http://www.phinergy.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[GRA]

You could argue that we don't know the degradation rate for the Soul EV but I'd argue that the degradation of the 2011 leaf battery pack is the worst on record and thus the mark to beat. I'll give the Soul EV the benefit of the doubt for now.

But why are comparing '15 Soul EV to '11 Leaf ?

Yes, if you have a degraded '11 Leaf, Soul might be better. But, so is '15 Leaf.

As I said - people who dearly need those 14 miles is a niche within a niche within a niche.

Not here in the Bay Area, the Megacommuting* capital of the country. 20-25 mile one-way commutes are routine around here, 30-35 miles very common, and up until 2008 and the mortgage meltdown 50-90 mile one-way commutes from the Central Valley were quite common. It wasn't unrelated that when gas prices spiked in 2008 and people living in those exurbs and making those commutes suddenly had $800/month gasoline bills, those communities had the highest levels of mortgage failures in the country.

The ability to use your heater/defroster and drive normally without worrying if you can make your commute is worth a lot, and 9 more miles EPA or 14 more real-world can make the difference around here for lots of BEV owners, for a lot of years. After all, anyone should be looking not at what the car can do when new, but what it can do throughout the period you plan to keep it and/or its battery EoL. For a LEAF with the original battery under warranty, that means at most 5 years/60k miles at 84 x .7 (Battery warranty EoL) x .8 (reserve/light HVAC use) = 47.4 miles, call it 40 miles for heavier heat/defrost use and rain or temps around freezing. For the Soul, that's 10 years/100k miles at 93 x .7 x .8 = 52.1 miles, call it 45 miles same conditions as the LEAF.

Naturally, 150 or 200 EPA miles would provide even more peace of mind over the long-term than 94, but you can't get that at LEAF-equivalent prices now. Once you can, unlike some I have no doubt that most people will opt to pay the same as they are now to get that extra range, instead of paying less for the same range they currently get. The current ranges, once they degrade, are just too limiting for most of the early adopters here, let alone the mainstream.

*Mega-Commuting: >= 90 minutes AND 50 miles one-way:

http://www.census.gov/newsroom/releases/pdf/poster_megacommuting_in_the_u.s.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;