Goodbye Nissan Leaf, hello Kia Soul EV

[oilerlord]

This is what i have been saying. The magic number is 300 miles but 300 miles at 0' F at 65mph at night heat on after 5 years and 60,000 miles on the odo.

250miles would do it with a complete low cost supercharger style network in place.

I estimate this means a car with a new range of 350 to 400 miles.

I would suggest they intentiinally software limit the range to around 250 to 300 miles and then in aoftware slowly expand the usable capacity to compensate for losses both permanent (degredation) and temporary (winter etc..) with the idea being that the car still has a 200 mile usable range after 200,000 miles.

Ths will provide enough range and the very much needed consistant reliable experience that people really need to trust the tech.

This is the reality that makes me think twice before buying any EV. As I'm sure the OP will attest, it's difficult to "trust the tech" when after less than a year of ownership & 19,000 miles, your effective range has dropped by 15% or more.

There are so many owner reviews that report how much money they are "saving" on gas which is technically true but buying an EV for the sole sake of saving money is a slippery slope - especially when you're an early adopter. At least with the Leaf, there is a track record (good or bad) that can be referenced, and we know how much it's going to cost when the battery eventually needs to be replaced.

I still believe that a used, low mileage EV makes the most sense if there's any hope to "save money" overall. I'm still amazed that used Leafs can be had for under $8,000. Even when you factor in a the cost of a replacement battery; that's a heck of a deal.

 

[Valdemar]

Savings are relative, most reports about "savings" come from people who are addicted to the lease cycle. Sure, compared to a $300 car and $150 gas monthly payment they are saving with the Leaf. Or people saying hey I dumped my 10mpg truck and now save $500 month on gas by driving a Leaf, when they could just buy any other small car and be saving about the same amount. Buying new will most certainly not save you anything, speaking from experience. Buying used is a good proposition with used Leaf prices plummeting, however if you factor in a battery replacement, budget some money for some major component failure such as the inverter or the on-board charger, consider your insurance cost, EVSE install, etc., you may find that a small used reliable gasser may actually be cheaper than an EV, especially if you can do all routine maintenance yourself.

 

[oilerlord]

Savings are relative, most reports about "savings" come from people who are addicted to the lease cycle. Sure, compared to a $300 car and $150 gas monthly payment they are saving with the Leaf. Or people saying hey I dumped my 10mpg truck and now save $500 month on gas by driving a Leaf, when they could just buy any other small car and be saving about the same amount. Buying new will most certainly not save you anything, speaking from experience. Buying used is a good proposition with used Leaf prices plummeting, however if you factor in a battery replacement, budget some money for some major component failure such as the inverter or the on-board charger, consider your insurance cost, EVSE install, etc., you may find that a small used reliable gasser may actually be cheaper than an EV, especially if you can do all routine maintenance yourself.

I drive a Jetta TDI now, and with a little hypermiling, I'm already getting about 40MPG combined. I've had zero issues with it and it costs very little to operate.

http://www.fuelly.com/car/volkswagen/jetta/2012/oilerlord/200092

I bought the car used in 2013. In the last three years and 37,000 miles, and including oil changes, it's only cost me about $3000 to operate the Jetta (not including insurance, and yearly registration fees). That's far and away the lowest TCO I've had with any vehicle I've owned.

We have a 2004 Audi wagon that we use while we're at our vacation home in Arizona. We drive the car about 5000 miles per year, and it gets about 20MPG overall. There are no problems with the Audi (yet). I'm considering selling the Audi, using the TDI in Arizona, and buying a cheap used EV. The TDI would be ideal for the highway trips to and from Arizona along with the mostly freeway driving in Phoenix. Using $3.00 per gallon as a reference for 91 octane, swapping the Audi for the TDI would yield an annual $700 in fuel savings plus another $900 per year by driving an EV and using my solar to power it as much as possible. Roughly speaking, that's about $1600 per year notwithstanding unexpected service bills.

The savings are splitting hairs in my case, but even with battery degradation / replacement, I think i'm still ahead selling the Audi and getting driving a cheap EV as my primary vehicle. I could always use my wife's car on the occasions where I need more range. The key is finding a very low mileage Leaf or one that recently had the battery replaced under warranty. It's ALL about the battery.

 

[Valdemar]

^^^ It is stories likes this that worry me, what would be a $300-400 repair on a gasser becomes a multi-thousand dollar affair: http://mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=21203

 

[oilerlord]

^^^ It is stories likes this that worry me, what would be a $300-400 repair on a gasser becomes a multi-thousand dollar affair: http://mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=21203

That's something I don't bother worrying about...big repair bills can happen regardless of the car you drive, it's just one of those variables we can't control. From the little research I've done so far, and from owner's experiences, EV's tend to be very reliable - which makes sense because of their simple drivetrain. Even VERY cheap EV's like the I-MiEV seem to be relatively bulletproof in terms of reliability.

 

[Valdemar]

I wish we knew how wide the bathtub curve is... Reliable for 5 years, sure. Longer? Who knows.

 

[asimba2]

Lol, that explains why we haven't heard his bragging for some time here.

He isn't missed around here.

 

[nerys]

Ehh he was just aggravated wanted an ev so badly but just needed a tiny bit more stinking range. So close he could taste it kind of thing.

As the prices for power come down it will happen if we demand it.

I also am a bit pissed at nissan for not giving me the option to upgrade to the 30kw pack which will physically fit just fine. Would make a simply huge difference for me at nearly 50% more range from my currently degraded pack.

Thats a real turn off. I would totally understand if it simlly did not fit but it does fit they just dont want too. The DRM in the pack also really wrankles me into a tizzy. I was not expecting such a sleezy move on their part in doing that. The car is otherwise pretty damned close to perfect.

Open the batt options have upgrade paths and for god sake get rid of the garbage ui for the built in media system and everything else about the car is nearly perfect.

 

[rumpole]

I drive a 2014 SV Leaf with about 6k miles left on the lease, and I'm seriously thinking about getting a Soul EV. The screen is better, the software is better, the app is better, and the car has a stronger B mode regen than the Leaf. I test drove it for the first time yesterday.

I'm struck by how similar it is to the Leaf, controlwise, and I've seen others say that Kia studied the Leaf and its drivers, when designing the Soul EV. Honestly, the only thing I liked better in the Leaf is that you can access the screen buttons which are disabled during driving when you stop, without having to put it into Park. The Soul EV says on the screen that you must be stopped to access those controls, but you actually have to go into Park, not just stop.

After the test drive, when we were driving home in the Leaf, the center console and the screen just looked small for the first time. I've had two Leafs since 2012. The first I leased, since I knew the charger would be upgraded, and to reward Nissan for having the courage to bring a mass-market EV to market. The second I leased, since I liked the leasing experience, and to enjoy the faster L2 charger. I feel a bit guilty switching, but honestly, I can't see a downside. And, I'll probably buy a cheap used Leaf later, when my son starts driving, so I'll still be in the Leaf sphere.

Does anybody have any complaints about the Soul EV?

 

[edatoakrun]

I drive a 2014 SV Leaf with about 6k miles left on the lease, and I'm seriously thinking about getting a Soul EV...
Does anybody have any complaints about the Soul EV?

Looks like he person who started this thread does:

27,000 miles 86-mile range; my Soul EV commute is over

...Signing off on Kia Soul EV. It's now our Costco car like the LEAF was way back when...

http://www.mykiasoulev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=546

Anyone else noticed that those early LEAF drivers who seemed most convinced that their LEAFs were rapidly losing capacity, and most shocked, and outraged that Nissan hid the fact that batteries lose capacity over time and with use, seem to find similar fault with the various larger-pack compliance cars they replaced them with?

 

[lorenfb]

Anyone else noticed that those early LEAF drivers who seemed most convinced that their LEAFs were rapidly losing capacity, and most shocked, and outraged that Nissan hid the fact that batteries lose capacity over time and with use, seem to find similar fault with the various larger-pack compliance cars they replaced them with?

Many us knew what to expect from capacity loss given our previous experience over the years using
NiCad, NiMh, and now Lithium batteries in various technology products. Capacity loss is inherent in any
technology the uses a battery to store energy. The rate of loss may improve over time, but it's still a major
detriment to a consumer's acceptance of a BEV.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

Anyone else noticed that those early LEAF drivers who seemed most convinced that their LEAFs were rapidly losing capacity, and most shocked, and outraged that Nissan hid the fact that batteries lose capacity over time and with use, seem to find similar fault with the various larger-pack compliance cars they replaced them with?

a lot of people crucified Nissan for the TMS decisions but maybe they had something. despite the super expensive systems used by Tesla, Ford, etc. degradation spares no one. I know a Tesla 85 S driver who is seeing 5-7% loss which seems good considering his mileage driven but when relating the size of the pack to the mileage driven, the LEAF without anything is doing just as well.


What we soon begin to realize is discounting the severe, heat degradation is pretty small but time degradation is not and pretty much hits hard everywhere. We just had a Seattleite qualify for a warranty exchange on his 2011 LEAF. Lost 4 bars but mostly because of the 5 years since his climate is not much different than mine or Steve Marsh (who lost his first bar at 73,000 miles but it took him a pinch over two years to do it...)

 

[Stoaty]

What we soon begin to realize is discounting the severe, heat degradation is pretty small but time degradation is not and pretty much hits hard everywhere. We just had a Seattleite qualify for a warranty exchange on his 2011 LEAF. Lost 4 bars but mostly because of the 5 years since his climate is not much different than mine or Steve Marsh (who lost his first bar at 73,000 miles but it took him a pinch over two years to do it...)

That person must have been driving hard and charging to 100% to achieve that degree of loss. I have been babying my Leaf by keeping SOC low, don't often charge to 100% and driving very efficiently. I am at 49 ah, 58 months and 50,000 miles and look to go another two years in a climate not nearly as favorable as Seattle.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

What we soon begin to realize is discounting the severe, heat degradation is pretty small but time degradation is not and pretty much hits hard everywhere. We just had a Seattleite qualify for a warranty exchange on his 2011 LEAF. Lost 4 bars but mostly because of the 5 years since his climate is not much different than mine or Steve Marsh (who lost his first bar at 73,000 miles but it took him a pinch over two years to do it...)

That person must have been driving hard and charging to 100% to achieve that degree of loss. I have been babying my Leaf by keeping SOC low, don't often charge to 100% and driving very efficiently. I am at 49 ah, 58 months and 50,000 miles and look to go another two years in a climate not nearly as favorable as Seattle.

yep but "driving hard" is a relative term as we well know. Some people who went from high end cars to the LEAF feel they are driving normally when I went from a hypermiling 54 MPG Prius to the LEAF and think they are crazy. He admits to driving fast and knew he would be close on the warranty and not saying he didn't take steps to make it happen but again, his main concern was the 5 year time limit which he beat by 2 months...

 

[mtndrew1]

I'm on both of these boards and that particular user could be a bit of an outlier, perhaps because he's basing his capacity loss entirely on the GOM readout. In my Soul, the GOM is extremely pessimistic.

I've been measuring my car's capability over time by extrapolating the car's achieved range against the dash-reported mi/kWh after accounting for remaining SOC at the end of a trip and I seem to have lost about 6.5% usable capacity @ about 24,000 miles in Southern California temps over 18 months.

Some Soul EV folks have started tapping into the car's CAN in a similar manner to LeafSpy and my capacity loss seems to be more or less in line with other Soul EV drivers who have more data. Notably, capacity loss seems extremely consistent across different climates, potentially indicating that the Soul's rudimentary forced-air battery cooling may be relatively effective at minimizing degradation.

Of course there are far fewer Souls than Leafs and fewer hot summers under the Kia's collective belts so it's hard to get too enthusiastic just yet, but based on what I've experienced firsthand and what people with the (very beta) SoulSpy are reporting, Soul EVs look like they lose capacity much slower than Leafs, particularly in hot climates.

The Soul's GOM, however, remains pessimistic. At 80% charge I start every day with about 68 miles of predicted range. I complete my 24 mile round-trip commute at highway speeds and get home with 60% SOC. This has changed very little since I bough the car, yet the GOM stays conservative.

 

[edatoakrun]

...Soul EVs look like they lose capacity much slower than Leafs, particularly in hot climates...

...Looks like the AVTA Soul Fleet (three out of four reporting) lost (on average) something over 10% of their baseline battery capacity over ~11 months and ~12,000 miles of use...In Phoenix...

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=13531&p=458372#p458372