Gen 1 GM Volt Plug-In Hybrid (2011-2015)

[Deleted member 9549]

Nissan reported total fleet miles when they celebrated the 50,000 LEAFs sold milestone. I believe that this were worldwide stats, and not just the US. It would be great if something like voltstats existed in the LEAF community.

This is my post from that thread Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2013 6:23 pm http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=11585" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; :
Go to the above thread to see the discussion.

Great numbers for both. Nice.

Car  / #Sold  / EV miles     / EV miles per car
LEAF / 50000* / 161,000,000* / 3220
Volt / 40250  / 135,000,000  / 3354*
* = higher number of the two

Volt EV miles from: http://www.chevrolet.com/volt-electric-car.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

via kdawg and data from http://www.chevrolet.com/volt-electric-car.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

dm33, FYI, since you never have anything constructive to say I added you to the my forums ignore list and thus I do not see your post anymore.

Apparently if you can't respond with facts, respond with GM marketing material and personal attacks. Nice. Nice flavor of the gm-volt site you're providing. Again your links are off topic and primarily GM propaganda. I see no link to Leaf miles driven, only the main Volt information page. Worldwide Leaf miles driven would be misleading since other countries tend to drive fewer miles.

If I were skeptical I'd say this is meant to promote the Volt on the Leaf forum as if paid by GM. I see no rational explanation to responding to questions of Volt vs Leaf EV miles with a generic link to the Volt page, nor your previous extremely long promotional page about OnStar.

 

[surfingslovak]

If I were skeptical I'd say this is meant to promote the Volt on the Leaf forum as if paid by GM. I see no rational explanation to responding to questions of Volt vs Leaf EV miles with a generic link to the Volt page, nor your previous extremely long promotional page about OnStar.

This is really unfortunate. I've interacted with Scott for some time and can vouch for his integrity. Before he started contributing here, it was difficult to form a balanced opinion, since most posters did not have first-hand experience with the Volt, and the discussion lacked some depth. Things improved considerably over the last year or so, likely because there is a number of combined Volt/LEAF households.

 

[Deleted member 9549]

This is really unfortunate. I've interacted with Scott for some time and can vouch for his integrity. Before he started contributing here, it was difficult to form a balanced opinion, since most posters did not have first-hand experience with the Volt, and the discussion lacked some depth. Things improved considerably over the last year or so, likely because there is a number of combined Volt/LEAF households.

Too bad there isn't a similar 'balance' available on the gm-volt site. Since no equivalent 'balance' is allowed on the gm-volt site which he moderates, it ends up with the appearance of astroturfing. The ideal solution would be for the gm-volt site to allow more open discussion, but Scott has expressed no interest in making the gm-volt site less restrictive.

 

[planet4ever]

If I were skeptical I'd say this is meant to promote the Volt on the Leaf forum as if paid by GM. I see no rational explanation to responding to questions of Volt vs Leaf EV miles with a generic link to the Volt page, nor your previous extremely long promotional page about OnStar.

This is really unfortunate. I've interacted with Scott for some time and can vouch for his integrity. Before he started contributing here, it was difficult to form a balanced opinion, since most posters did not have first-hand experience with the Volt, and the discussion lacked some depth. Things improved considerably over the last year or so, likely because there is a number of combined Volt/LEAF households.

Thank you. While I do sometimes sigh at the length of scottf200's posts, I too appreciate his presence on this board. Sadly, I can't say I appreciate dm33's presence here. All complaint and no substance. I try to keep my foe list short, and I haven't added him yet, but I have been sorely tempted a number of times.

Incidentally, before dm33 accuses me of being one of those people, I am on my second LEAF, and I have never had a Volt, though I did look seriously at them in 2009-2010.

Ray

 

[evnow]

Self reported? Don't understand your comment. Voltstats is exactly the same type of info that Carwings gets from the car.

Then, obviously it is better than self reported. Is there a mechanism in Volt that can prevent stats from being uploaded like in Leaf ?

As a USA Volt owner you can optionally sign up for OnStar.

What % of Volt owners signup for Voltstats ?

Anyway, from what you are describing it looks like a self-selected sample. That is not useful statistically.

 

[scottf200]

What % of Volt owners signup for Voltstats ? Anyway, from what you are describing it looks like a self-selected sample. That is not useful statistically.

I agree it is selective. But you can see people there that use a fair amount of gas so it is not like it is entirely skewed. Click on the EV% column and you'll see 20,30,40%. If you go to that site you can see about 1700 and do the math on the number of Volts sold since 2011 to calc the percentage. The chart above is not from the 1700 voltstats.net folks but from all on OnStar.

The OnStar overall numbers http://www.chevrolet.com/volt-electric-car.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; are better. Ditto for the mobile app Volt DC. I've posted some screenshots of it a couple pages back. It is pretty cool to compare to others in your state, region, national level in different categories.

 

[SanDust]

Voltstats is probably a decent source but why not just use the EV Project results? You've got 1895 Volts and 4261 Leafs. On average a Volt gets roughly 20% more EV miles than the average Leaf, which is more or less what the daily driving numbers indicated would happen.

That Leaf drivers are self selecting low mileage drivers is an interesting point which may be valid but it doesn't change the conclusion.

No doubt if you don't like this fact you'll come up with all sorts of reasons why they're all the result of bad methodology.

 

[Reddy]

I edited my original post but here is the link, too: http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/policyinformation/pubs/hf/pl10023/fig4_5.cfm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Thanks for the link. As I was reading it, I was struck with this thought: I wonder what the percentage of gasoline is consumed as a function of trip length? Since about 65% of the trips are less than 10 mi, this would be where ICE vehicles are the most inefficient, stop-N-go, in town, etc. So even though this is less than 25% of the miles, I would predict that it's much more than 25% of the gasoline consumption. This is related to a conversation I had with a Cruze owner who said she gets 40 mpg. I tried to explain that, no, in-town on her daily commute, she's probably getting closer to the EPA estimate (unless hypermiling), which is 25 mpg and not much better than my 25 yr old ICE. Her "average" mpg is a weighted function of how many miles she drives on the highway and in the city. However, it's no different than me saying I get 5.2 mi/kWh (and then not qualify that it's only in the summer and I get 2.7 mi/kWh in the winter).

So, don't worry whether it's a Volt, Leaf, Tesla, MiEV or EBike. Just keep "plugging" along while always plugging in. Personally, I try to convince potential new owners to buy the car that best meets their needs. If they don't already have another ICE, then I steer them to the Volt, PiP, CMax, or other hybrid etc. If they have another ICE, then I let them know the Leaf, FFE, MiEV, and now Spark, etc may be an option.

 

[sparky]

First, I like both cars very much. I drove both, made my choice and am happy with it.
While I try not to engage in these Volt vs LEAF jousts I do find the data interesting (even if not statistically "pure").

It looks to me like GM picked the right EV range to sell their car among likely buyers; i.e.; those who can afford the car and want an EV driving experience but feel they need > 50 mi of real range at their disposal.
Nissan picked a "real world range" that's a little short of what many buyers wanted so, Nissan lost some sales to GM.

LEAF beats Volt on price and that translates to a better value for those who don't drive more than 50 mi/day. They'd be wasting $ buying a Volt.

The key thing is what strategy makes sense going forward? Based on the data shown it seems to me like Nissan just needs a few more miles of range and they start to pick off Volt buyers. I don't know that GM has a viable strategy to do something similar with the Volt technology. I presume GM can't reduce cost as fast because their drive train is more complex. Nissan or any BEV maker just needs a cheaper battery to allow more range for the same price (which is where the battery tech is heading) and they will expand the "better value" proposition.

 

[RegGuheert]

Voltstats is probably a decent source but why not just use the EV Project results? You've got 1895 Volts and 4261 Leafs. On average a Volt gets roughly 20% more EV miles than the average Leaf, which is more or less what the daily driving numbers indicated would happen.

That Leaf drivers are self selecting low mileage drivers is an interesting point which may be valid but it doesn't change the conclusion.

I didn't claim that it changed the conclusion, but rather that it is the main reason for the result you mentioned above. IOW, we agree.

One question: How does the EV Project know how many miles a LEAF or Volt is driven?

 

[GRA]

The key thing is what strategy makes sense going forward? Based on the data shown it seems to me like Nissan just needs a few more miles of range and they start to pick off Volt buyers. I don't know that GM has a viable strategy to do something similar with the Volt technology. I presume GM can't reduce cost as fast because their drive train is more complex. Nissan or any BEV maker just needs a cheaper battery to allow more range for the same price (which is where the battery tech is heading) and they will expand the "better value" proposition.

I look at it this way. PHEVs are a transition technology, on the way to BEVs with sufficient range at a price the mass market can afford. That being said, to me a purist approach is a case of 'the best' being the enemy of the 'good enough for now'.

Tesla claims the Gen III will have 200 miles of range for $35k. Well, what PEV has those kind of stats right now, in general terms? The Volt. It considerably exceeds the max. range, but the price and size are right there. The only question is how fast battery prices and densities improve, so that we can fully make the transition to all-electric. Until we can, a PHEV like the Volt allows mainstream drivers to drive a very high proportion of their miles on electricity, with zero anxiety and minimal hassle (no need to install an L2 at home).

And who knows - it may come down to how quickly batteries and fuel cells each reduce their price. Maybe one or the other will win, or maybe we'll wind up with fuel-cell hybrids (FCHVs) like the Toyota Highlander FCHV-ADV that lives in my neighborhood, using the battery for local use (home/work charging), with the fuel-cell supplying the range for longer trips. Or maybe we'll all be driving around in 150 mile BEVs (nobody complains about the RAV4EV's range in daily use), only renting FCEVs for long trips. I think it's way too early to go for technological lock-in, especially since I see several other technologies all becoming viable soon, e.g. autonomous cars along with inductive charging. All I'm sure of is that it's going to be an interesting time for cars over the next 5-10 years.

 

[SanDust]

One question: How does the EV Project know how many miles a LEAF or Volt is driven?

I don't know for a fact. Given you sign the right to all your information away when you participate in the EV Project, I'd assume it has access to the CarWings/OnStar information. For charging events it would have access to the home charger information.

FWIW I don't believe we have any data suggesting the Leaf drivers are low mileage drivers or, more aptly, lower mileage drivers than Volt drivers. The average daily driving when the Leaf is used is 29 miles. When the Volt is used it's 41 miles. It doesn't take many days with trips of 150 miles to account for that difference. If we're looking for differences, my guess would be that Volt drivers are more likely not to have access to another car. IOW one car families aren't likely to get a Leaf. Maybe this is what you're saying.

 

[RegGuheert]

One question: How does the EV Project know how many miles a LEAF or Volt is driven?

I don't know for a fact. Given you sign the right to all your information away when you participate in the EV Project, I'd assume it has access to the CarWings/OnStar information. For charging events it would have access to the home charger information.

If Carwings is involved, then we need to assume that the LEAF miles are low, but there is no way for us to know how low. IMO, it could be VERY low, since we do not know what the rate of pressing the OK button is in the startup screen.

FWIW I don't believe we have any data suggesting the Leaf drivers are low mileage drivers or, more aptly, lower mileage drivers than Volt drivers. The average daily driving when the Leaf is used is 29 miles. When the Volt is used it's 41 miles. It doesn't take many days with trips of 150 miles to account for that difference. If we're looking for differences, my guess would be that Volt drivers are more likely not to have access to another car. IOW one car families aren't likely to get a Leaf. Maybe this is what you're saying.

What I am saying is that anyone purchasing a LEAF is not likely planning on driving it more than about 70 miles/day, with a very few exceptions. There is no such limit on the Volt. Some people will certainly have selected a Volt simply because their daily driving needs were too far for a LEAF. What each buyer used for their criterion for the LEAF upper limit probably varies, but the fact is there is a mental range limit in mind for every purchaser of the LEAF.

 

[SanDust]

Based on the data shown it seems to me like Nissan just needs a few more miles of range and they start to pick off Volt buyers. I don't know that GM has a viable strategy to do something similar with the Volt technology. I presume GM can't reduce cost as fast because their drive train is more complex. Nissan or any BEV maker just needs a cheaper battery to allow more range for the same price (which is where the battery tech is heading) and they will expand the "better value" proposition.

As a practical matter, the data doesn't suggest a strong case for either Nissan or GM adding range. There just aren't many days when you drive more than 40 miles and less than a hundred. To make an impact you need to go after the 17% of days the average driver goes over 100 miles. Nissan has tried to address this with DC charging but I think this effort is misplaced.

I suspect GM has more opportunity to cut costs simply because the Volt is so complex. For example, you could eliminate the planetary transmission in the Volt and go with the Spark high torque motors. That would cut quite a bit of cost, probably as much or more than what we'll see in the lower cell prices.

Tesla claims the Gen III will have 200 miles of range for $35k. Well, what PEV has those kind of stats right now, in general terms? The Volt. It considerably exceeds the max. range, but the price and size are right there.

Forget the Volt. The Spark EV is almost there now. At $350/kWh, which may be more than GM is paying, you could add another 24 kWh of cells to the current Spark EV and end up with a 180 mile range. At this point you're basically there. I doubt that that people would want to pay for all this range though. Hard to see why you'd want to pay to go above 120 or 150 miles unless you could get to something like 400, which is the point at which long trips start becoming practical.

 

[evnow]

No doubt if you don't like this fact you'll come up with all sorts of reasons why they're all the result of bad methodology.

No doubt people like me point to bad methodology when the methodology is bad. As a part time data scientist, that is my job.

A -> B, doesn't mean B -> A.

I'd like to see the averages compared after controlling for variables like commute distance, geography, age etc.

 

[GRA]

Tesla claims the Gen III will have 200 miles of range for $35k. Well, what PEV has those kind of stats right now, in general terms? The Volt. It considerably exceeds the max. range, but the price and size are right there.

Forget the Volt. The Spark EV is almost there now. At $350/kWh, which may be more than GM is paying, you could add another 24 kWh of cells to the current Spark EV and end up with a 180 mile range. At this point you're basically there. I doubt that that people would want to pay for all this range though. Hard to see why you'd want to pay to go above 120 or 150 miles unless you could get to something like 400, which is the point at which long trips start becoming practical.

Adding 24kWh of cells to the Spark would require a huge improvement in energy densities (both kinds), regardless of the price. So I'll be happy when it can be done, but won't be holding my breath expecting it to happen in the next three years.

Those of us who take weekend trips want all the range we can get, up to ca. 300 miles or so (all conditions, with a reserve). Beyond that point it's just a matter of how long you're comfortable going between meals and bathrooms. Most Bay Area weekend trips tend to fall in the 100-250 mile radius range, and those heading to the Sierra also involve 7,000-10,000 feet of climb. Every extra mile of range gives options for higher speed and/or extended HVAC use. So, 150 miles (freeway range with reserves) is the point at which a BEV becomes moderately useful for me, but I'd like enough more that I could do most of my trips without needing to charge en-route, only at destinations.

Currently, only the Tesla S-85 is even in the ballpark, but a Volt would work handily. And being a single-car, renting household, a PHEV is really the only choice (for me) until a BEV/FCEV with sufficient range is available and affordable. However, I see no reason to buy twice when my current ICE is good for years, until such time as a BEV/FCEV of the necessary specs and price is available.

 

[SanDust]

No doubt people like me point to bad methodology when the methodology is bad. As a part time data scientist, that is my job.

A -> B, doesn't mean B -> A.

I'd like to see the averages compared after controlling for variables like commute distance, geography, age etc.

You have NO data that supports your position whereas ALL the data supports mine. That's not entirely surprising since I started with the data and reached a conclusion instead of starting with a conclusion and trying to find data to support it. One approach is science. The other is polemics.

Moreover the idea that you want to control drive cycles is nonsensical since we're talking about the AVERAGE drive cycle. If you control for drive cycles then you no longer have an AVERAGE. In this regard, what possible difference would age make? Are you saying that a 65 year old and a 35 year old who drive the same distances every day will give us a different result? :lol: The bottom line is that you're just trying to poke holes in something you don't like. Give it up and just go where the numbers take you, even if that destination is "Irony Island".

 

[evnow]

You have NO data that supports your position whereas ALL the data supports mine.

Everyone I know regularly drive more than 40 miles on Leaf.

Let us assume that the average might be higher on Volt. I don't know if that means anything useful, though.

For eg., I regularly drive to Seattle downtown and to northern suburbs. These trips are typically 50 to 70 miles. But my commute is only 25 miles. So, I'm sure, my average is less than 40 miles.

Now, if I had a Volt instead, my EV average would have been even lesser ! That is the point I'm trying to make.

Remember this discussion started with someone claiming people either drive less than 40 miles or more than 100. What rubbish.

Not sure what point you are trying to make. Analysis is all fine - what where is the synthesis ?

 

[LTLFTcomposite]

Now, if I had a Volt instead, my EV average would have been even lesser !

Anecdotal data point: If not for the Volt, our fleet average EV miles would be substantially less, as being a two-leaf household was a complete non-starter.

 

[CarZin]

"Let us assume that the average might be higher on Volt. I don't know if that means anything useful, though."

You can infer a LOT from this. Even though Volt owners have less total electric range than a Leaf owner, they don't allow range anxiety to prevent them from taking a trip. On the other hand, even though the Leaf has more total range, range anxiety is going to play a much bigger role, meaning Leaf owners are going to be less likely to make a 70 mile commute. The Volt owner will, giving them about 30 miles on gas, and 40 on electricity. The leaf owner will be 70 miles on gas, because they left the all electric car in the garage.