FOX News: Solar Power pointless because insufficient sun!

[Reddy]

Yup, no solar power in Germany. :? Then how come it is dropping daytime spot prices? Look a the two graphs in the article:
http://arstechnica.com/science/2012/04/german-solar-juggernaut-continues-despite-tariff-cuts/

The interpretation seized on by Photon (and subsequently restated in English by Renewables International Magazine) is that this dip in daytime electricity price is entirely thanks to Germany's photovoltaics infrastructure. That has rocketed from an installed capacity of 6GW in 2008 to 25GW in 2011—amounting to half the world's installed solar power, with 7.5GW installed in that year alone. Renewables International estimates that a further 2GW may have been installed already this year.

Oh, and I love this one:

As veteran business and environment journalist Giles Parkinson put it at Renew Economy, "solar PV is not just licking the cream off the profits of the fossil fuel generators—it is in fact eating their entire cake."

So now you know the real reason Faux News is spouting this dribble. The old fossils are LOSING market share to renewables, especially during those peak daytime use hours, and they don't like it. So what do think would happen in California, if PVs reduced the peak daytime prices to that of the nightime?
Reddy

 

[thankyouOB]

yes, Reddy is hitting the nail on the head. Solar works with the right government incentives, particularly feed-in tariffs, which are behind the explosion of solar in cloudy Germany.

---
on another thought-stream...

what thread is this?

Sorry I thought the discussion had moved on to Karl Rove and election night.

Oh, OK - no problem.

But I'm 63 now and don't think I'll ever get old enough to give it up to Karl Rove. Just saying...(maybe 1,000?)

kkkarl has the reputation for being a political genius. but he lost the 2000 election and was bailed out by the supreme court. he got clobbered in 2012, misspending all those tens of millions, and in 2004 his team barely beat Kerry, relying on some pretty foul tactics of disenfranchising Ohioans with the help of that ken blackwell, the ohio sect of state, who was also the bush for pres campaign chair in ohio. (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/democracy-now/ken_b_1836862.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false
that is not to mention his burn out election night this time around, when even fox news was embarrassed for him and itself, and suspended him from the network for three months.

now, he is picking a fight with the hard right and tea partyers -- the fundamentalists, women and immigrant haters and old white folks he enabled and empowered -- because they wont go along with the kkkarl's big money backers in picking "sane" gop candidates for senate.

 

[Reddy]

Well, I tried to get it back OT. :lol:

Remember, even on a cloudy day, a 5 KW PV system might produce 1 KW, more than enough to power the house (except high draws like my electric furnace, hot water heater, and clothes dryer). Only in the PNW and other high hydro areas can we be so wasteful with electricity. Most others use nat gas for those.

Reddy

 

[evnow]

what thread is this?

Sorry I thought the discussion had moved on to Karl Rove and election night.

I still see no connection what you are saying and Karl Rove / Romney / Faux News self-delusion .

 

[LKK]

Ted Kopple did a story on how the media has changed. In the old days there was bias but in general news outlet tried to present a fair and balanced story. Today the news outlets have found that they can get really high viewership by telling certain segments of the population not the truth, but what they want to hear. Fox has long ago abandoned truth and objectivity in favor of the conservative views of the Tea Party, and their rating have soared, as has their revenue. There are other news outlets pushing liberal views, so Fox isn't the only villain. What this has done is polarized the population, and the gutless members of congress who represent them are now afraid to compromise with the other side for fear of getting voted out.

 

[LTLFTcomposite]

I still see no connection what you are saying and Karl Rove / Romney / Faux News self-delusion .

The discussion seemed to be headed toward spiking the ball but no point going further astray from the topic at hand. Forget I said anything.

Regarding your feed-in tariff, as I understand it, that enables me to be paid for the juice I push back out on the wires, as opposed to paying for the juice I draw from the wires. But don't we have to assume the wires themselves (along with the transformers and a million other components) are normally paid for by the people buy from the grid? It's a little like EVs not paying gas taxes, as long as it's a tiny percentage flying under the radar no problem, but if it becomes a large percentage those costs are going to have to be reallocated to all users some other way.

 

[LEAFfan]

Well, I tried to get it back OT. :lol:

Remember, even on a cloudy day, a 5 KW PV system might produce 1 KW, more than enough to power the house (except high draws like my electric furnace, hot water heater, and clothes dryer). Only in the PNW and other high hydro areas can we be so wasteful with electricity. Most others use nat gas for those.

Reddy

On a totally cloudy day (absolutely no sun), ours still generated 2 kW h (not kW).

 

[dgpcolorado]

...Regarding your feed-in tariff, as I understand it, that enables me to be paid for the juice I push back out on the wires, as opposed to paying for the juice I draw from the wires. But don't we have to assume the wires themselves (along with the transformers and a million other components) are normally paid for by the people buy from the grid? It's a little like EVs not paying gas taxes, as long as it's a tiny percentage flying under the radar no problem, but if it becomes a large percentage those costs are going to have to be reallocated to all users some other way.

My member-owned power co-op has almost doubled the service charge over the last couple of years to help pay for the infrastructure and make the rate structure fairer. The electricity rates are based on their cost of power. So, no free ride for my grid-tied solar array here and I don't have a problem with that. I'm paying for my lines and transformers...

This isn't very difficult stuff.

 

[Reddy]

One benefit of feed-in tariffs is the ability for high solar locations to produce OVER the net-metering amount. For example, my roof in eastern WA can easily produce more than twice my annual consumption (even with my electric heat/water/dryer). I've got a good solar profile. Without FIT, I would be limited to the net metered amount and would produce half the solar. Many of my next door neighbors have a terrible solar profile and would probably never install PVs. So the net effect a lower total system amount of solar by net metering when compared to FIT.

 

[evnow]

But don't we have to assume the wires themselves (along with the transformers and a million other components) are normally paid for by the people buy from the grid? It's a little like EVs not paying gas taxes, as long as it's a tiny percentage flying under the radar no problem, but if it becomes a large percentage those costs are going to have to be reallocated to all users some other way.

But, PV is nowhere near being a large %. And when we get to the point when PV is a large %, of course, we should revisit these incentives.

This is the basic point a lot of people miss. The tax structures & incentives are intended to help spur the industry and get it going.

 

[ericvoll]

I can say from first hand experience (I lived in Germany for a year as an exchange student in the early 90's) that Germany, like most of Northern Europe, is overcast a lot. It just really depends on the year. I live in Kansas City, Missouri, and I get a lot more sun here that I ever did living there.

Oh, and as far as the facts regarding solar, according to the EPA's 2007 eGRID Subregion Resource Mix report, nationally, overall the "reporter" was accurate in saying about 0.01% comes from solar; in fact the amount is 0.0147%. This figure is a bit misleading though because solar hasn't been pushed very much throughout the entire country. If one digs down into the different grids, of which there are about 26 of them in this country, we get some more interesting figures:

0.2529% - WECC California (most of the state of California)
0.0291% - WECC Southwest (bit California/Nevada, Arizona, and most of Utah)
0.0034% - WECC Rockies - (bit Nebraska/S. Dakota, part of Wyoming, Colorado)

Certainly, I'd like to see more solar in this country. The fact we're not using as much as we could to me seems like a fantastic opportunity, not an indicator of failure.

 

[klapauzius]

I grew up in Germany and I can confirm it has less sun than California.

It is more like Seattle, which as far as Solar is concerned, still gives decent production.

I think the biggest difference is that the feed-in tariffs are not capped in Germany, so it makes sense to go really big. I have seen whole fields converted to Solar on my last visit. Barn roofs, Supermarkets, even industrial facilities with large roofs, all covered in panels.

WA for example has a $5000 cap on production incentives, so really big systems do not make sense here. If you assume that maximum incentive is $0.54 per kWH and electricity is otherwise dead cheap here, the biggest system size that makes sense economically is just 9 kW (we get ~ 1000 kWH per kW power installed).

 

[kubel]

I have seen whole fields converted to Solar on my last visit. Barn roofs, Supermarkets, even industrial facilities with large roofs, all covered in panels.

The thing I love about solar (and wind) is not necessarily the green aspect- the most appealing thing to me is self-sufficiency. I see a future where every rooftop is covered in panels, much like you describe. I'm hoping to cover my garage in panels, but living in Michigan, I'm not sure when it would pay off. I'm wondering if it's best to hold out a few more years for price to come down and technology to grow, or do like I did with the LEAF and take a plunge. :mrgreen:

 

[surfingslovak]

Germany does not get a lot of sun. In fact, on the rare occasion that it's sunny outside, people look for any and all excuses to leave work early, skip classes or otherwise change their daily routine. Perhaps Fox should do more research? Their claims are getting more outrageous by the day.

I believe that the red-green coalition, which was elected in 1998, deserves much of the credit for putting Germany on its current track. You might like the following story about a farmer, who put a good chunk of his savings into a solar roof in the hopes of earning 400 euros a month. It's from a German tabloid, which covers a range of mainstream topics. It's not a green magazine by any measure. Note how sunny the sky is on the photo.


Click to open

 

[planet4ever]

Oh, and as far as the facts regarding solar, according to the EPA's 2007 eGRID Subregion Resource Mix report, nationally, overall the "reporter" was accurate in saying about 0.01% comes from solar; in fact the amount is 0.0147%.

How is that number calculated, and how do they know how much power I generate? Oh, wait, I see that they don't:

eGRID is based on available plant-specific data for all U.S. electricity generating plants that provide power to the electric grid and report data to the U.S. government.

Dang, I guess I haven't been reporting my data to the government the way I should.

(I've had a 7kW system on my roof for more than 5 years. How many thousands of others are there like me?)

Ray

 

[Nekota]

A recent article in San Jose Mercury News on Net Metering talks about shifting cost burdens.

http://www.pgecurrents.com/2013/02/05/helen-burt-it%E2%80%99s-time-to-reevaluate-net-energy-metering-for-solar-power/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

correct me if I am wrong and I will advise Sophia, a friend of my nephew who has had 3 extended stays in Western WA and claims the weather here is the same as in Germany except that they get a colder in winter. other than that, she states our spring and fall are just like hers.

WA has a small but growing solar industry and like Germany, WA has great incentives that will pay up to 54 cents/kwh for solar generated power. And yes, the solar is limited but I know a guy who has solar on his house in West Oly and he basically generates power and sells it at 28 cents (or so) to PSE and turns around and buys it from PSE for 8½ cents which allows him to power a 3500 sq ft house with an extended family and two electric vehicles and still receive a check.

Why the government does not take the lead on Solar is a mystery to me that I am sure a group of lobbyists know the answer to.

They should be installing solar on every government rooftop in the country. its a no brainer but then again, its always a question of money aint it?

 

[surfingslovak]

correct me if I am wrong and I will advise Sophia, a friend of my nephew who has had 3 extended stays in Western WA and claims the weather here is the same as in Germany except that they get a colder in winter. other than that, she states our spring and fall are just like hers.

When you look at the graphic in the Slate article Phil referenced in the OP, you will note that the PNW is represented with the same color like most of Germany. This means that the amount of solar radiation over the year is roughly comparable. Klaupazius said something along those lines further upthread, and he grew up in Germany and now lives in Seattle. I agree that federal and local government buildings should lead the way, especially knowing that this investment will amortize before long. Efficient lighting and electric and partially electric vehicles for their fleets would be the next logical step, and would help lower operational costs.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

now someone please chime in but when we did the Yokohama thing, Jeff was telling us that Nissan World Headquarters was the most efficient building in Japan (also one of the newest!) and was due in part to a chimney that built in the center of the building so it took on a form of a hollow square. The chimney ran from the ground level all the way up to the top and this greatly reduced climate control costs.

now, I am not suggesting we tear down what we have and rebuild them but just saying, we have the technology and we choose to ignore it for the most part.

sure, some of it costs money but I think we need to look beyond the initial cost in preparation of a day when no amount of money will pay the piper.

 

[klapauzius]

correct me if I am wrong and I will advise Sophia, a friend of my nephew who has had 3 extended stays in Western WA and claims the weather here is the same as in Germany except that they get a colder in winter. other than that, she states our spring and fall are just like hers.

When you look at the graphic in the Slate article Phil referenced in the OP, you will note that the PNW is represented with the same color like most of Germany. This means that the amount of solar radiation over the year is roughly comparable. Klaupazius said something along those lines further upthread, and he grew up in Germany and now lives in Seattle.

I think the weather in Seattle is quite similar to Germany. We get a little below 1000 kWH per 1kW power installed in Seattle. Its always a bit depressing to see that Seattle is close to the minimum for lower 48 in Solar power, but it is still sufficient. With better efficiency and putting more cells on my roof, I could probably cover my consumption (including the leaf). It just does not make to much sense economically, due to the cheap electricity rates, the cap for residential solar and the high cost for labor (and the fact that incentives run out in 2020...every year I procrastinate more to expand my system will make it less meaningful).