Disappointment with battery capacity and "Nissan miles"

[bowthom]

Here is my charger test results from another thread.
Cheers

Hello all,
Here is the chart of our Leaf charger test done today. We found the leaf to be fully compliant with the J1772 standard.

Horizontal is the commanded max amperage (each 10% of PWM signal = 6A) in 1 amp increments, vertical is actual load. You can see the Leaf maintained 80% of the max amp command.

Also, building a small portable 240V EVSE for opportunity charging is bone head simple.

 

[Stunt822]

We want to sell 1,000,000 of these Leafs to people who today have never heard of the Leaf or even that there are electric cars on the road. That's the only way the world will change -- otherwise the Leafs will end up like the GM models, in a car crusher.

Very well said.
I expressed same worry in other thread reg price. You can't expect 1 mil people to pay $10k premium, unless gas goes overnight to $6/gal. But this would be $20k premium, if not the tax credits.

 

[Herm]

I expressed same worry in other thread reg price. You can't expect 1 mil people to pay $10k premium, unless gas goes overnight to $6/gal. But this would be $20k premium, if not the tax credits.

Stunt, you need to price compare the Leaf to other midsized cars in the market.. not with $15k subcompact econoboxes.. you also need to adjust for the options that are standard in the Leaf and optional in other cars. For example, if you compare the Leaf to the new 2011 Chevy Cruze (with the 1.4L engine turbo/auto transmission) then you notice the Leaf is only (about) $5200 more expensive. Since you get a tax credit of $7500 then that easily makes the Leaf cheaper than the comparable Cruze. We dont even have to factor-in the fuel cost savings over the years.

You can use the www.truedelta.com website to do apple-apple price comparisons between any two cars.

Dont forget, the green social status of owning a Leaf will get you lots of attention from eco-chicks!.. that is almost priceless if you like your women hairy

 

[JRP3]

I expressed same worry in other thread reg price. You can't expect 1 mil people to pay $10k premium, unless gas goes overnight to $6/gal. But this would be $20k premium, if not the tax credits.

Stunt, you need to price compare the Leaf to other midsized cars in the market.. not with $15k subcompact econoboxes.. you also need to adjust for the options that are standard in the Leaf and optional in other cars.

Exactly, I've tried to stress this point many times and even wrote a blog post about it.
http://ephase.blogspot.com/2010/11/leaf-is-cheaper-than-corvette.html
I guess because of the limited range people always compare EV's to the cheapest car available, but if the range is enough for you then that's not an issue. I like to compare the LEAF to a Prius with similar options, which brings the Prius to about $28K. I don't think anyone looking at a $15K econobox suddenly jumps up in price to buy a LEAF, or any other vehicle that costs $10K+ more.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

how about comparison of two cars that qualified for significant discounts for me.

my 2010 Toyota Prius verses my 2011 Nissan Leaf. first of all, by whatever coincidences you want to put on them, the difference in the out the door price of the two is less than $300

my 2010 is package 4 with BT, NAV, sunroof, heated seats, premium stereo and much more storage space and leather.
discounts; Prius Priority Purchase; was first in WA State to buy IN STATE. because of prior activity, etc. was given a $2600 discount off MSRP along with State Sales tax waiver (ended for Hybrids now but took delivery in may 2009)

2011 Cost, got discount from Rairdons and despite unfavorable lease terms, i am supposed to be able to purchase car which would make my total out the door price which would include an INSTANT Tax credit would be $28,894. my Prius which was cash purchase was $28,514

now, granted the Prius is upscale on somethings. leather, stereo (is MUCH better than the Leaf) storage, etc.

but none of that comes close to the $8-9 a week for electricity verses the $20-25 a week for gas (which does not include additional maintenance the Prius requires) when both cars are driven nearly 50-50 in miles

 

[Herm]

I guess because of the limited range people always compare EV's to the cheapest car available, but if the range is enough for you then that's not an issue.

People are doing that because in the back of their mind they think electric is cheaper than gas.. never have to visit a gas station again and fork over $40 etc. Perhaps so in a few years but this is Gen 1 of the new era.

Nissan perhaps made a mistake making both the Versa and Leaf have similar styling cues (rear mostly IMO), but Leaf is almost 100% new with a new dedicated electric only platform. This electric only platform shows Nissan's intention.. they intent to dominate the market.

 

[LEAFguy]

LeafGuy:
Posing as a Leaf owner? You've got to be kidding. You think someone would bother to come on here and pose just for fun? I have to say, I take offense, and I am really disturbed by some of the extreme condescension from other EV drivers that my OP has inspired.
Josh

Josh, I did not mean to offend you. At the time of this posting, I see that you have only 5 posts on this forum. And to answer your question - yes... some have come into this forum to do exactly as you say. I understand all of the points that you made, but at the same time, I do not believe that I was condescending in any way, so I hope that comment was not directed at me. I answered your post with information that has been public for quite some time. I must say that I agree with you on Nissan's continuing to advertise a 100 mile range. That is based on the EPA's city LA4 driving cycle. The 73 miles EPA range seems to make more sense, for more people, more of the time.

 

[Train]

Comparing a Prius to a Leaf is difficult because in the end, the cars useability and practicality has to be factored in. Can you take a Leaf on a 400 mile vacation? No. You can with the Prius. A weekend trip to the lake or camping 125 miles away with the Leaf? Maybe, but probably not. How much is that worth? You can't compare just the price of the vehicle, maintenance, etc. over the years.

A Prius can go anywhere like most cars. A Leaf can't. It's limited in its mission. Apples and oranges.

 

[DaveEV]

A Prius can go anywhere like most cars. A Leaf can't. It's limited in its mission. Apples and oranges.

A Prius burns gas like most cars. A Leaf can't.

You're right - apples and oranges.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

Comparing a Prius to a Leaf is difficult because in the end, the cars useability and practicality has to be factored in. Can you take a Leaf on a 400 mile vacation? No. You can with the Prius. A weekend trip to the lake or camping 125 miles away with the Leaf? Maybe, but probably not. How much is that worth? You can't compare just the price of the vehicle, maintenance, etc. over the years.

A Prius can go anywhere like most cars. A Leaf can't. It's limited in its mission. Apples and oranges.

i guess i am different than most here in that i work for a living. the trip you refer to i actually do about 5-7 times a year...which is how often i use the Leaf PER WEEK.

my post did not imply (at least i hope it didnt) that my Leaf will replace my Prius (which it wont) but that its not as expensive or overpriced as some would think.

i have to have 2 cars in this household. of that there is no option. my hours dont allow me to use the bus. (my shift starts about 40 minutes after the first bus in the morning and my work is not located on the main line anyway so earliest i could make it to work is 7:15 AM which way past my shift start)

i could car pool, but that is beyond this discussion. now i guess we could go into TCO being much lower on the Leaf that would somehow balance the "worth" of buying the car, but i dont really care if my electricity was more than double what i pay now, i would still do it.

i have reasons for buying a Leaf that has nothing to do with the cost of the car. but others have to look at that and i am trying to get them past the sticker price because there are other factors that are not always clear.

you talk about usability, well let me talk to you about that. i have been tracking my driving, mileage, etc since i signed up to get my first Prius more than 7 years ago. since Thanksgiving weekend 2003, i have tracked every single drop of gasoline i have used.

trips i have made, etc. right now i have 2 Priuses and my Leaf. you know what? if i had 2 Leafs and one Prius, that Prius would sit all but 10-15 times a year. because that is the average times i drove more than 100 miles in a day.

we are probably different in our livestyles and location, interests and etc. it may not work for you, but the Leaf definitely carries its weight in my family and does it effortlessly

 

[Train]

Probably not that different, Dave. I'm considering a Leaf as the other vehicle in a two vehicle household. I'm just speaking in generalities, especially for persons who only can have one vehicle. Certainly a new car purchase of almost any kind is typically not a good financial decision but more emotional. People see a newer car, something that grabs them and they gotta have it. A good used car would see most people through but that's no fun.

 

[linkim]

I think Train and Dave are having the same type of discussion that many of us are thinking when we consider purchasing a LEAF. I drive a 2002 Prius (also 1996 Ford Ranger infrequently). The Prius may be approaching the end of life is a few years. Then what? For long trips, I could rent a car or wait for a PHEV or BEV (if longer range, >200 miles) for purchase. The majority of my trips are local (i.e., less than 20 miles round trip), with frequent trips to San Francisco from Silicon Valley (about 100 miles RT). Since I work out of my house (semi retired), commuting is not an issue but getting to SF and back is another story.

In any case, keep up the rational discussion, but we need to remember the LEAF is not for everyone because of the range or other factors.

 

[JRP3]

Comparing a Prius to a Leaf is difficult because in the end, the cars useability and practicality has to be factored in. Can you take a Leaf on a 400 mile vacation? No. You can with the Prius.

If you don't need to take that 400 mile trip it doesn't matter, or, if like most families, you have another vehicle. I don't need to travel 400 miles for a vacation. My point stands, if the LEAF range is enough for your needs then it's simply not an issue.

A Prius can go anywhere like most cars. A Leaf can't. It's limited in its mission. Apples and oranges.

A LEAF can drive without gasoline, most cars cannot, they are limited in their missions. How many more exciting incidences like Libya do you think we'll need before the idea of endless road trips on a whim becomes a memory? We are living in a different world now and our priorities will likely need to change. Our "need" to be able to travel endlessly is based on a world with cheap abundant oil. That world is fading. Obviously people buying a LEAF are more concerned with the daily transportation they need than the long road trips they don't.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

i would never have considered a Leaf if i could only have one car. i would have gone for a Volt or plug in Prius.

i guess i am lucky in that one of our favorite camping spots is Hoodsport, WA right on Hood Canal. it has great boating, camping options. we go there once each for shrimp, crab and lobster season. it would be an overnight thing and 110 volt charging would be available, but the key thing is that its about 40 miles one way.

those kinds of weekend options abound here.

the one trip we do need the Prius for is Salem, OR but the entire way there and back will be lined with QC stations by the end of summer, so "could" use the Leaf, but wont.

 

[garygid]

limkin,
Perhaps a perfect example of a situation where a conveniently located QC station in SF would greatly facilitate your LEAF usage.

A few more QC stations and you could go to Napa area, do a QC there and spend the day, with a 2nd QC to get you through Marin and into SF for the evening, then one final (3rd) QC to get you home, even allowing you to take the scenic route.

 

[ERG4ALL]

Does anybody remember the National Speed Limit of 55 mph that was in effect almost 30 years ago? I hated it and now I would reconsider just so we could travel the main roads and still get great mileage from the batteries.

Oops! I'm showing my age. The 55 speed limit was nearly 40 years ago. I believe it came into being when Nixon was President and he left office in 1972.

 

[JasonT]

Does anybody remember the National Speed Limit of 55 mph that was in effect almost 30 years ago?

Remember? Who could forget - especially with a song about it
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RvV3nn_de2k[/youtube]

 

[linkim]

Hi garygid,

Thanks for your advice. I am getting less concerned with range anxiety as I read the messages in the Forum. I do have a place for L1 charging in SF so that is not a concern. The information is very helpful. I guess my increasing concern is the charging issues I read such as the SOC control, interfacing with CARWINGs, smartphone and computer, etc. Maybe someone needs to write a book on Charging for Dummies or the like.

Cheers an keep the information flowing.

 

[Train]

A LEAF can drive without gasoline, most cars cannot, they are limited in their missions.

How is this a limitation? The Prius can still transport people but it does it with a gasoline engine. It is not a limitation of its mission because it cannot store electricity.

The point of both cars is transportation. However it's done, one propelled by electricity and the other by an internal combustion engine, the mission is the same...to transport its occupants. Because the Leaf can only go a fraction of the mileage range that the Prius can, that's the limitation. For the Prius not to be able to use electricity is not a limitation. It's not in the design so it's a non starter.

This is not a criticism but an observation and fact.

Your comment about having two cars so the Leaf is not needed for 400 mile trips is irrelevant. I'm comparing the cars to each other.

 

[JRP3]

My point is you only see the use of gasoline as an advantage for the Prius, I'm saying it's likely going to become a liability. It's endless road trip potential will be meaningless if the price of gas makes it impractical, or if your local gas station has nothing to sell. It's happened before. If, like a significant number of people, you don't really need more range than the LEAF gives you, the Prius offers no advantage.