Disappointment with battery capacity and "Nissan miles"

[ERG4ALL]

Train posted:

If you drive 55-60 mph in a 75 mph zone on many parts of I-10 during normal commute hours in Arizona, there's a good chance you will be ticketed for impeding normal traffic flow. This is 15-20 mph under the limit.

Being a Phoenix resident the 75 mph speed limit is outside the metro area of Phoenix. It is true the limit is that on the way from Phoenix to Tucson, however, my understanding is that a QC station is to be built somewhere between Phoenix and Tucson (approx. 100 miles fringe to fringe and maybe 125 center to center) in the near future.

What I would suggest is that when we get our LEAFs that we all seek out opportunities to display the cars. There are many events that would welcome a LEAF. There are antique and classic and some free form "show what you brung" events. Also, I've had this happen with some of the vehicles we own, is when you see someone looking at the car, try opening a conversation. It may only be a sentence or two but it will be more than a sound bite. vb This, in a small way, will allow us to get the true message out to ICE drivers. There needs to be conversation. The sound bites that are on television and just a window sticker do not convey the real message that needs to be sent as to how the cars react to varied driving habits.

When ICE drivers see a sticker that says an ICE car gets 17 city and 21 highway they are unprepared for a LEAF that can get 62 or 138 miles per charge. The public needs to understand the effect that driving habits have on mileage.

Around here, unfortunately, a 65 mph speed limit on some of the freeways in town results in 80 mph for many vehicles. Also, Arizona took out many of the speeding cameras as too much of an invasion by "big brother". Hopefully as gas prices rise and more and more of us get on the road we may be able to see the majority start to obey the speed limits.

 

[smkettner]

If you drive 55-60 mph in a 75 mph zone on many parts of I-10 during normal commute hours in Arizona, there's a good chance you will be ticketed for impeding normal traffic flow. This is 15-20 mph under the limit. Even staying in the right lane, much of I-10 is only two lanes and the volume is such that keeping with the flow of traffic is essential.

I have never heard of such a citation for anyone going 55 in the slow lane of a multilane highway. Is there a minimum speed posted?
For those that have actually recieved such a citation please speak up.

 

[Deleted member 1622]

LeafGuy:
Posing as a Leaf owner? You've got to be kidding. You think someone would bother to come on here and pose just for fun? I have to say, I take offense, and I am really disturbed by some of the extreme condescension from other EV drivers that my OP has inspired. Some of you guys really need to get over yourselves (go watch the South Park episode about Prius owners in San Francisco, and you'll understand where I'm coming from). A criticism of Nissan's marketing habits is not a criticism of you or your family, for God's sake.
I just spent 40K on a car, and did extensive research about it before I put that money down, so of course I know everything about "proper EV driving" and some of the other things I've been lectured about here. The fact is, we follow those driving habits... we can't help it if we live on a hill and drive 90 percent on the highway for a daily commute, that's just how it is. And my original point was that plenty of people do only highway driving, and that means that Nissan will have a hard time selling these cars on a wide scale if buyers first must submit to a a lecture about proper driving habits and never getting on the highway before they can buy it. Of course I'd love for everyone to slow down, chill, and embrace the short-range culture, that's just not the world we live in.
What I did learn that I didn't know before (so thanks to those who informed me) was that Nissan's calculation for remaining miles is different for each individual car and relies on driving history, rather than actual battery capacity (what happens when CARWINGS is disconnected in 3 years, I wonder?). So now the variability between my 85 "miles-left" on 100 percent charge and the person who gets 107 miles on an 80 percent charge makes more sense. Both cars are getting the same juice, but Nissan is presuming to know how I'm going to drive in the FUTURE based on the past. Interesting, and very Big Brother.
Thanks to some of those users who did not react with condescension to my OP and understood that I am happy with the car, but not happy with Nissan's marketing of the car and range/battery capacity estimates.

Josh

barsad22 - Would you be willing to place your information in the spreadsheet? Some might be skeptical of your claims, thinking that perhaps you don't really own a LEAF. If you did, those skeptics might be able to validate that you actually do own a LEAF and that you are not just posing as a LEAF owner.

That said, there have been many studies (even by Nissan) showing the range of the LEAF to be anywhere from 62 miles to 138 miles. And real-world Nissan LEAF owners have reported that they have achieved distances of over 100 miles on this forum (search range).

My point is this - you can select any vehicle currently offered by any manufacturer. Most offer a "trip computer". You will find some that say you have 300 miles left, when in fact you will only go 200, and others that say you have 200 miles left, and actually travel 250. What matters is how you actually drive the vehicle as well as the terrain that you drive over, whether EV or ICE. The vehicle computer can only project based on prior data. You obviously do not drive an approximation of the EPA LA4 driving cycle, so you will not receive LA4 driving cycle mileage (100 miles) per charge. I don't see why you are surprised that you don't receive this mileage. EPA states mileage to be 73 miles per charge on the window sticker. It seems that you are closer to that mileage. Perhaps your driving is more representative of that particular lab test. We drive in the real world, we don't drive in labs. Our driving will not replicate precisely the EPA (or Nissan) projections. Even those reflected in the on-board trip computer. The trip computer only knows previous information. It can't know future information.

 

[TRONZ]

So I don't get it. Does this guy own a LEAF or not? What's the VIN# delivery date/dealer? Kind of all seems pointless if noone can confirm his deal.

 

[smkettner]

Many of Nissan's range estimates based on driving conditions are far less than 100 miles.
None of the examples goes over 55 mph but warns of reduced range at higher speed.
I am not sure exactly what is in question here :?

From Nissan:

Highway driving in the summer: 70 milesSpeed: Average 55 mph

Temperature: 95 degrees

Climate control: On

Averaging 55 mph on the highway, in 95 degree weather, with the air conditioning on high may produce range figures like this. Higher speeds require more energy to overcome air resistance. Running the air conditioner means energy that could be used to increase range instead goes to cooling the car.

Cross-town commute on a hot day: 68 milesSpeed: Average 49 mph
Temperature: 110 degrees

Climate control: On

Driving from a rural area into the city at an average 49 mph with the a/c on high may produce this range. Under these conditions, climate control combined with higher-speed driving produces increased energy consumption, hence the effect on range.

Winter, urban stop-and-go, traffic jam: 62 milesSpeed: Average 15 mph

Temperature: 14 degrees

Climate control: On

Though the average speed is only 15 mph with stop-and-go traffic, the 14-degree temperature means the heater is doing a lot of work so you spend considerable time and energy heating your car rather than moving forward. Despite these conditions, it would still take more than 4 hours to run out of charge!

 

[ENIAC]

I am really disturbed by some of the extreme condescension from other EV drivers that my OP has inspired.

Wow, where did that come from? I've seen nothing of the sort in this thread.

 

[Train]

I have never heard of such a citation for anyone going 55 in the slow lane of a multilane highway. Is there a minimum speed posted?
For those that have actually recieved such a citation please speak up.

There is no minimum speed, a minimum doesn't have to be posted. If everyone is doing 70-75 mph on a two lane highway and someone is traveling at 55, this can be considered impeding the normal flow of traffic.

 

[GeekEV]

I am really disturbed by some of the extreme condescension from other EV drivers that my OP has inspired.

Wow, where did that come from? I've seen nothing of the sort in this thread.

I have, a little. I wouldn't quite call it extreme, but... I guess it depends on how you read it.

 

[LakeLeaf]

If you drive 55-60 mph in a 75 mph zone on many parts of I-10 during normal commute hours in Arizona, there's a good chance you will be ticketed for impeding normal traffic flow. This is 15-20 mph under the limit. Even staying in the right lane, much of I-10 is only two lanes and the volume is such that keeping with the flow of traffic is essential.

much the same on Interstates in California too

ETA California law

 

[jkyu99]

Hey Josh, If I was one of those you took offense to, sorry, wasn't intentional. I looked back at my post and I guess it could seem that way. My post was meant more as, your range is what the EPA said to expect.

What I have learned from all this is that when I get the chance to be an ambassador for the Leaf at my work, give them realistic numbers. Let them know that driving as they usually do, they will get about 75 miles to a full tank and that their mileage may vary. Depending on their choice of routing, pedal technique, maximum speed, and even things like temperature and accessories, their mileage may vary. Regardless of that variance, as a commuter car for short to medium range, it should work very well. I think I need to include that their costs will vary wildly depending on their State & local financing support as well as their opportunity to charge opportunistically (eg at work).

 

[evnow]

What I did learn that I didn't know before (so thanks to those who informed me) was that Nissan's calculation for remaining miles is different for each individual car and relies on driving history, rather than actual battery capacity (what happens when CARWINGS is disconnected in 3 years, I wonder?). So now the variability between my 85 "miles-left" on 100 percent charge and the person who gets 107 miles on an 80 percent charge makes more sense. Both cars are getting the same juice, but Nissan is presuming to know how I'm going to drive in the FUTURE based on the past. Interesting, and very Big Brother.

Good that you learnt the important thing.

The history has nothing to do with carwings. Carwings is just a way to transfer that history to Nissan's servers (and for you to view it over the web). In anycase, we thing Leaf only looks at immidiate past history, not months before.

Big Brother ?! This is like the "driving time" that various mapping vendors show you. Are they being the big brother ?

 

[johnr]

Maybe some of you who own LEAFs would like to do a standardized test to determine your real range, and if there's any discrepancies to individual cars. If everyone's range turns out to be about the same, then it would put this matter to rest for good. How about this: Start with an 80% charge, find a long, less traveled street, and set cruise control for say 50 mph and turn off all accessories except fan and radio. Travel back and forth until the low battery warning light comes on, and see how far you've gone. You'd want to be reasonably close to home, of course. Then we can compare results. Just an idea, take it or leave it

 

[walterbays]

I have [seen condescension], a little. I wouldn't quite call it extreme, but... I guess it depends on how you read it.

Here's how I read it.

barsad22 said: Range isn't what I expected. This could be a problem for mass market acceptance, unless Nissan improves communication.

how that could be heard: Range isn't what was promised. I wuz cheated!

other said: Range varies greatly. Tell us more, and maybe we can help you get the range you need.

how that could be heard: The problem is with you, not the car. You just don't know how to drive properly.

 

[GeekEV]

That sounds like too much work. I'd rather just enjoy driving my car! :lol:

 

[smkettner]

I have never heard of such a citation for anyone going 55 in the slow lane of a multilane highway. Is there a minimum speed posted?
For those that have actually recieved such a citation please speak up.

There is no minimum speed, a minimum doesn't have to be posted. If everyone is doing 70-75 mph on a two lane highway and someone is traveling at 55, this can be considered impeding the normal flow of traffic.

Two lane highway certainly, I meant a multilane with a continuous lane to pass.
I understand in general the minimum speed is 45 mph on the interstates.

 

[ENIAC]

I think there's two questions here. First, is your battery pack good? If I in any way suspected my range was not as expected, based on my driving habits and ave miles/kWh, then I would have a Nissan dealership test my pack. Second, we all know the range to empty algorithm is suspect. It's attempting to estimate the future, based on the past. It can be easily fooled. Because you may go from optimal conditions for a long while (35 mph, ECO mode, no accessories, etc) to highways speeds with the heat on. And so the algorithm thrashes to readjust to the new reality.

Personally I feel the range to empty algorithm needs a dampener on it's estimations. I was thinking it could take the pack capacity and break it's estimated range to empty into four estimation segments. The assumption is that you are starting with a full charge and a range to empty of 100 miles. For the first 20 miles, the range to empty always decreases by the actual miles driven. In the second estimation phase, it attempts to gracefully adjust your range to empty to be at 50 mile when you have 50% charge. I would suggest in the first and second phase your range to empty can never increase for any reason. It might go down very very slowly, but it can't go up. For the third phase (50% to 30% of capacity), the existing algorithm may be sufficient. Once below 30%, I think the existing algorithm needs to be made more conservative so that the range to empty never falls quickly into turtle mode.

 

[planet4ever]

If you drive 55-60 mph in a 75 mph zone on many parts of I-10 during normal commute hours in Arizona, there's a good chance you will be ticketed for impeding normal traffic flow. This is 15-20 mph under the limit. Even staying in the right lane, much of I-10 is only two lanes and the volume is such that keeping with the flow of traffic is essential.

much the same on Interstates in California too
ETA California law

I can't speak for Arizona laws, but in California the maximum truck speed limit is 55 mph. AFAIK that maximum applies to all highways in the state except where it has been set - and posted - as lower for safety. I don't see how you could ever be ticketed for "impeding normal traffic flow" if you were driving at the maximum truck speed in a legal truck lane.

Ray

 

[derkraut]

If you drive 55-60 mph in a 75 mph zone on many parts of I-10 during normal commute hours in Arizona, there's a good chance you will be ticketed for impeding normal traffic flow. This is 15-20 mph under the limit. Even staying in the right lane, much of I-10 is only two lanes and the volume is such that keeping with the flow of traffic is essential.

much the same on Interstates in California too
ETA California law

I can't speak for Arizona laws, but in California the maximum truck speed limit is 55 mph. AFAIK that maximum applies to all highways in the state except where it has been set - and posted - as lower for safety. I don't see how you could ever be ticketed for "impeding normal traffic flow" if you were driving at the maximum truck speed in a legal truck lane.

Ray

Planetforever: you are correct about the CA truck speed limit. I've been driving CA roads for over 50yrs; and I've never had a problem driving around 55mph in the right hand lanes. Now...many trucks break the speed limit; but, that's their problem---not mine. The old excuse: "well, I was just keeping up with traffic", won't wash when you are pulled over in CA. A golfing buddy of mine (drives a new "z" convertible) got two tickets within 15 miles for "keeping up with the traffic". Cost him a total of $1150 for the two tickets. I didn't ask about his insurance rate adjustment. :roll:

 

[Ready2plugin]

This maybe getting a little OT, but Spain just announded that they are lowering their national highway speed limits from 120 kph to 110 kph (68 mph) to save on energy costs. They are also lowering the cost of train tickets by 5% and increasing their biofuel component of gasoline and diesel from 5.8% to 7%.

 

[Train]

I can't speak for Arizona laws, but in California the maximum truck speed limit is 55 mph. AFAIK that maximum applies to all highways in the state except where it has been set - and posted - as lower for safety. I don't see how you could ever be ticketed for "impeding normal traffic flow" if you were driving at the maximum truck speed in a legal truck lane.

Trucks have no separate speed limit in AZ.