Disappointment with battery capacity and "Nissan miles"

[Electric4Me]

To give Josh some credit, I think he knows that he can slow down, or charge to 100%, etc., to increase his range. His beef is that after us early adopters the general public needs to buy Leafs to make this whole thing succeed, and Nissan isn't doing that "right". Is that right Josh?

And he may be right. Time will tell. Will the GP think that ~100 LA04 miles = a NEV? I too would be happier with 150-200 LA04 miles, but hopefully all of purchases will help technology to that point.

Bill

 

[LEAFguy]

barsad22 - Would you be willing to place your information in the spreadsheet? Some might be skeptical of your claims, thinking that perhaps you don't really own a LEAF. If you did, those skeptics might be able to validate that you actually do own a LEAF and that you are not just posing as a LEAF owner.

That said, there have been many studies (even by Nissan) showing the range of the LEAF to be anywhere from 62 miles to 138 miles. And real-world Nissan LEAF owners have reported that they have achieved distances of over 100 miles on this forum (search range).

My point is this - you can select any vehicle currently offered by any manufacturer. Most offer a "trip computer". You will find some that say you have 300 miles left, when in fact you will only go 200, and others that say you have 200 miles left, and actually travel 250. What matters is how you actually drive the vehicle as well as the terrain that you drive over, whether EV or ICE. The vehicle computer can only project based on prior data. You obviously do not drive an approximation of the EPA LA4 driving cycle, so you will not receive LA4 driving cycle mileage (100 miles) per charge. I don't see why you are surprised that you don't receive this mileage. EPA states mileage to be 73 miles per charge on the window sticker. It seems that you are closer to that mileage. Perhaps your driving is more representative of that particular lab test. We drive in the real world, we don't drive in labs. Our driving will not replicate precisely the EPA (or Nissan) projections. Even those reflected in the on-board trip computer. The trip computer only knows previous information. It can't know future information.

 

[LEAFfan]

Josh, that poster was Skywagon who said he had 107 miles after charging to 80%, not 100%. Here's the deal: I don't even own one yet, but I learned already that the 'charge miles' given after charging is going to be determined by your driving HISTORY. The reason Skywagon gets that number to start is because he's been driving his LEAF conservatively (staying off freeways) and so he is recording high mpe numbers on Carwings and his car's history. This is why some people's miles after charging is so much less for the same amount of charging. Nissan just needs to communicate this information (that your 'miles left after charging is based mostly on driving history, not the charging %') better to prospective buyers so they will know what mileage to expect BEFORE they buy/lease the car.

 

[Smidge204]

EPA says on a full charge, Leaf gets 73 mile range. (80% charge would get you 58 mile range)

There's been discussion about those EPA numbers.

The EPA test got 151 City miles out of a charge for city driving conditions (using the "drive it 'till it's empty" method). Then they applied a 30% adjustment to get 106 miles, which is on par with Nissan's claims.

However, the EPA then applies another 30% adjustment on top of that, resulting in the 73 mile range on the sticker. If you want to know where this adjustment comes from, it's in this tortuous tome somewhere (PDF).

Fair or not, this final number does seem to jive loosely with real-world experiences as reported by forum members for mixed highway/city driving without much alteration in driving habits (eg driving 65+). With better driving habits, however, greater ranges can be realized.
=Smidge=

 

[Randy]

Nissan just needs to communicate this information (that your 'miles left after charging is based mostly on driving history, not the charging %') better to prospective buyers so they will know what mileage to expect BEFORE they buy/lease the car.

When we picked up our cars, Danny at Fontana said this very thing. He advised to look more at the SOC bars on the right and not pay as much attention to the range number since it is heavily influenced by history and what you're doing at the current time (climbing a hill, etc). He was right on the money. Kudos to Danny for pointing that out, and this was back on 1/4 before any significant number of cars were delivered. Somehow he knew about it, which leads me to believe that he was advised by Nissan in advance. Perhaps at the training he went to?

 

[garygid]

Danny was also reading and participating in this forum.

 

[EVDRIVER]

Nissan just needs to communicate this information (that your 'miles left after charging is based mostly on driving history, not the charging %') better to prospective buyers so they will know what mileage to expect BEFORE they buy/lease the car.

When we picked up our cars, Danny at Fontana said this very thing. He advised to look more at the SOC bars on the right and not pay as much attention to the range number since it is heavily influenced by history and what you're doing at the current time (climbing a hill, etc). He was right on the money. Kudos to Danny for pointing that out, and this was back on 1/4 before any significant number of cars were delivered. Somehow he knew about it, which leads me to believe that he was advised by Nissan in advance. Perhaps at the traiing he went to?

Perhaps he read something every EV driver has know for the last 10 plus years, the most basic principal of owning an EV that still holds true today yet people just don't get or ignore at times. This is the ABCs of an EV and yet so many people assume or think Nissan has changed the basic EV fundamentals with some special technology. It's all exactly the same and the LEAF is no different.

 

[Randy]

I agree, Gary, but as early as January 4th, I don't think folks on the forum were discussing this issue in any great depth. I read the forums as much as anyone, and I don't recall seeing much about that before picking up my car. So that was my point, that Danny was educated on the specifics of the Nissan range gauge well before discussions began here on it. I appreciated being briefed on the ins and outs of the gauge before taking our long drive.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

i see the OP's point. it seems his major concern is others being disappointed when they dont get the 100 mile range but at the same time, i dont know how Nissan could have made it any clearer.

they posted scenarios both good and bad. i went into this with expectations and my Leaf had met or exceeded every single one.

the concern and its a very valid one; some will get the Leaf and be disappointed that they cant break the law and get 100 miles too.

the real success of the Leaf is getting the product out there and letting word of mouth sell the car. Nissan has done a great job of helping the infrastructure get started, but its up to us to finish the job. when money flows to a product, the support structure builds itself and that includes charging stations.

new demand creates new pressures for lawmakers which can and should REQUIRE employers to provide a number of plug ins for their employees. 110 volt charging maybe slow, but puts the range of the Leaf well over 100 miles and its a very small cost to the employer.

now, 220 is something that will take more synergy to get going and a lot more money on the employers part and could take years, but if you could plug in 8 hours at work, then what would your range be then??

 

[garygid]

With portable "universal voltage" EVSEs in our cars, simple 120 and 240 volt sockets are all we need for "slower/faster" charging (ignoring theft of EVSEs).

These sockets are much less expensive than full EVSEs to install, although some places have had trouble with "unintended" usage by "RV" type vehicles.

Still, to get the EV into "general" use, a good network of QC stations is critical.

 

[Nubo]

...
In answer to your questions, yes, I live on a hill, and yes, I drive normal highway speed, which in 2011 is not 55-65 but is more like 65-70 unless you are going to hang out in the right lane. ...

This is probably the biggest hurdle for someone transitioning from an ICE. Speed is a huge factor for range, no way around it.

Too many people seem to think that speeding is a requirement for some reason "in this day and age", that somehow it's unsafe or uncivil to keep within the law or (God Forbid) a few mph slower than the maximum speed limit. These are prisons of our own imagining.

I'm in the Bay Area, and I've driven my ICE at a steady 65 and at a steady 60 on our highways. It is not problematic. The problem is a psychological one. What's so terrible about being in the right lane?

And when you do drive at these speeds you realize that all the frenetic speeding wasn't saving you nearly as much time as you'd thought. The difference between 60 and 75 on my 35 mile round-trip is maybe a whopping 5 minutes per day.

But I would agree that Nissan does the customer a disservice by placing such emphasis on their computed range display, which will spend the majority of its time being flat-out WRONG. State Of Charge, and running averages of mileage are much more useful. Since the driver knows where and how they will be driving, they are much better at calculating range than the onboard computer after just a few drives.

 

[Jimmydreams]

...
In answer to your questions, yes, I live on a hill, and yes, I drive normal highway speed, which in 2011 is not 55-65 but is more like 65-70 unless you are going to hang out in the right lane. ...

This is probably the biggest hurdle for someone transitioning from an ICE. Speed is a huge factor for range, no way around it.

Too many people seem to think that speeding is a requirement for some reason "in this day and age", that somehow it's unsafe or uncivil to keep within the law or (God Forbid) a few mph slower than the maximum speed limit. These are prisons of our own imagining.

I'm in the Bay Area, and I've driven my ICE at a steady 65 and at a steady 60 on our highways. It is not problematic. The problem is a psychological one. What's so terrible about being in the right lane?

And when you do drive at these speeds you realize that all the frenetic speeding wasn't saving you nearly as much time as you'd thought. The difference between 60 and 75 on my 35 mile round-trip is maybe a whopping 5 minutes per day.

But I would agree that Nissan does the customer a disservice by placing such emphasis on their computed range display, which will spend the majority of its time being flat-out WRONG. State Of Charge, and running averages of mileage are much more useful. Since the driver knows where and how they will be driving, they are much better at calculating range than the onboard computer after just a few drives.

I couldn't agree more. Also, I've noticed that I have MUCH more reaction time to traffic hazards/stopped traffic/etc. at 65mph than I do at 80mph. That type of fringe benefit of driving 60-65mph really takes the edge off of driving and actually makes it somewhat enjoyable. Someone in another thread says it's a "Zen" driving thing....I agree.

But, like most things, people won't believe you until they experience it for themselves. Until then, they'll marvel at 75-80mph commutes (and associated wasted fuel) and not realize how easily they could change that dynamic.

I, for one, will continue to tell people about the benefits of slowing down and EV's. Maybe one or two that hear me will actually listen.

(this isn't OT, because higher speeds = lower range) :mrgreen:

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

...

And when you do drive at these speeds you realize that all the frenetic speeding wasn't saving you nearly as much time as you'd thought. The difference between 60 and 75 on my 35 mile round-trip is maybe a whopping 5 minutes per day.

right on man!

5 minutes and 20% less stress which can mean 10 minutes more commuting every day equating to an additional 8 years of longevity. (estimated longevity for people leading low stress or well managed stressed lives)


as far as the Nissan display; ummm who said it should be revered?? its not the bible. it information of which we are bombarded on every waking second of our lives. we filter every thing we see and hear based on our life experiences.

if hundreds report here that 100 miles gets 70 on the freeway at 65 mph and they buy a Leaf expecting 100 miles, then who is to blame?

there are many statements as to why Nissan's rollout has been a bit slow, but could it be possible that they wanted hard core EVers to get them, write them up and put out the "real" word on the range and expectations?

 

[Smidge204]

And when you do drive at these speeds you realize that all the frenetic speeding wasn't saving you nearly as much time as you'd thought. The difference between 60 and 75 on my 35 mile round-trip is maybe a whopping 5 minutes per day.

The best part is when someone comes right up behind you, then frantically weaves around you and speeds off. Ten miles down the road, you pull off the highway and up to the first traffic light... right behind the guy that just blew past you. :lol:

I've been on both sides of that scenario, though...
=Smidge=

 

[Herm]

Best part of driving at 55 is that no one tail-gates you

I think Nissan should have two estimated range remaining.. one using your long term history and the other one using short term history.

 

[evnow]

I think Nissan should have two estimated range remaining.. one using your long term history and the other one using short term history.

I've said this before.

Nissan should give much better miles estimate. If you tell them the destination, they should be able to tell how much of the battery will be used based on
- route & traffic (determines your speed)
- terrain
- driving history

Ofcourse, OP's problem is not this. He simply misunderstood the meaning of the range being shown.

 

[GeekEV]

I think Nissan should have two estimated range remaining.. one using your long term history and the other one using short term history.

+1 to that idea! Maybe a software patch? Please?

 

[smkettner]

Even this morning an 80% SOC displayed a range of 107 miles.

Now that is some skillful driving Anyone can just mash the peddle and weave through traffic :roll:

 

[charlie1300]

The OP has a valid point, to make this a mass market car, it has to work for customers that are going drive it like an ICE. But I think the "mile" issue will be self correcting. When the product was first introduced, there was no EPA standard for EVs, so Nissan chose an EPA test standard (that they thought would make their car look good) and went with it. They won't change their PR story now. But the mass market doesn't even know the Leaf exists. When I mention the Leaf to friends, the first question is "what's that?". By the time mass market buyers figure out they might want to consider a leaf, Leafs will be in the
dealership showrooms with a 73 mile range EPA sticker in the window. ICE buyers will subtract 5 from that, and they will be just about right if they drive it like an ICE.
While I totally agree that we should slow down, drive efficiently, etc., mass market driver will be slow to change, if at all.

 

[Train]

If you drive 55-60 mph in a 75 mph zone on many parts of I-10 during normal commute hours in Arizona, there's a good chance you will be ticketed for impeding normal traffic flow. This is 15-20 mph under the limit. Even staying in the right lane, much of I-10 is only two lanes and the volume is such that keeping with the flow of traffic is essential.