Did not deliver the range advertised

[smkettner]

The range expectations are fine when disclosed and new.

10% degradation per year even in mild climates.... Not so much paperwork or disclosures on that.
I fully expected 80% range at 5 years and possibly EOL at 10 yrs. Not 80% at 2 years and EOL at 3yrs.

At least the AZ Leafs will be getting a free battery or two and maybe a heat tolerant battery later this year.

 

[uwskier20]

The proposed class action settlement filed in Los Angeles Federal Court will severely harm consumers if approved, and limit Nissan's liability exposure in my opinion.

...which is precisely why I and surprisingly few others opted out, in order to preserve our rights to further recourse.

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=310869" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=14378" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[BTaylor]

Did anyone ,that is claiming they were under the impression of a 100 mile range, actually see that on the vehicle info sticker?

I signed the little booklet that very clearly explained the expected range in different conditions such as cold and using heat. The same diagram was online, but I can't find it know. Before I bought the car I thought the diagram made it very clear what to expect and always felt afterward that is was a good description of the expected range. Over 35,000 miles all capacity bars showing...very pleased.

I believe you are referring to the 2011 Leaf Customer Information and Disclosure Form. Mine states the following:

IDEAL DRIVING CONDITIONS: 138 MILES
Speed: Constant 38 mph
Temperature: 68 degrees
Climate control: off

SUBURBAN DRIVING ON A NICE DAY: 105 MILES
Speed: Average 24 mph
Temperature: 72 degrees
Climate control: off

HIGHWAY DRIVING IN THE SUMMER: 70 MILES
Speed: Average 55 mph
Temperature: 95 degrees
Climate control: On

CROSS-TOWN COMMUTE ON A HOT DAY: 68 MILES
Speed: Average 49 mph
Temperature: 110 degrees
Climate control: on

My current driving conditions are slightly higher (guesstimate) than average speed of 55 mph when surface street driving is factored into my commute. The recent temperatures are much lower than 95 degree temperature (high of 75 today). And, I don't use climate control. My current driving conditions are better than the HIGHWAY DRIVING IN THE SUMMER conditions above, but I don't come close to 70 mile range. I wish.

 

[cwerdna]

Did anyone ,that is claiming they were under the impression of a 100 mile range, actually see that on the vehicle info sticker?

I remember hearing that 100 mile range tossed around by marketing, but I thought the original range given was 74 or so miles and is now 84?

EPA rated ranges are at http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=sbs&id=30979&id=32154&id=33558&id=34699" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; (73, 73, 75 and "84" miles).

Re: '13 and '14 Leaf range changes:
'13: http://insideevs.com/2013-nissan-leaf-rated-at-75-miles-but-84-miles-using-the-old-system/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
'14: http://insideevs.com/2014-nissan-leaf-mostly-unchanged-as-range-technically-moves-up-to-84-miles/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; - again, the "84 mile" '14 Leaf has NO more range than the "75 mile" '13 Leaf

Re: "100 miles", I'm quite sure that Carlos Ghosn, CEO has said range is "100 miles" before the Leaf was released on Charlie Rose. Not sure if the ep is still up somewhere. It was before. I found a transcript at http://livedash.ark.com/transcript/charlie_rose/918/KQED/Thursday_November_19_2009/109534/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.

http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052748703959704575453710456516180?mg=reno64-wsj&url=http%3A%2F%2Fonline.wsj.com%2Farticle%2FSB10001424052748703959704575453710456516180.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; said 100 miles (if link doesn't work, Google for Getting a Charge From Nissan's New Leaf and click on the WSJ link)

Random auto show reps and dealers have shamefully said 100 miles: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=13264" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; and even a Nissan European exec even recently said 200 km (124 miles!!!), see http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=304180#p304180" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.

Yes, Nissan had outlined on their website and other printed material range across numerous scenarios, like the ones BTaylor posted.

 

[cwerdna]

I will try cruise control at 60 mph to see the difference. Although, I am likely to get ran over on the California freeways at 60 mph. As an aside, I would never have bought the car if I am limited to 60 mph in order to get useable range.

From having lived in So Cal for 4.5 years and Nor Cal for many years, I can totally relate, esp. in So Cal. Down there, going 70 mph in a 55 or 60 zone is just keeping up w/some traffic and having many folks whizzing by you. You will be a total slow poke down there and have to keep right the whole time.

The Nissan representative for the claim I filed explained Nissan's position is the warranty is only for 9 'bars' or more on the 'capacity indicator'. I went through the warranty book and didn't find anything about the number of bars on the capacity indicator as the trigger to repair or not to repair. There is a lot of reference to "gradual capacity loss". I have no idea what my actual 'capacity loss' really is other than representations by Nissan. What I do know is my loss of range hasn't been gradual. Rather, the loss of range is rapid and shocking. When I first had the car I could easily go to work and back home again with plenty of range left. Impossible now.

According to the Nissan representative there is no warranty for range. So, Nissan won't do anything until the battery bar capacity is below 9 bars.

That's correct. They don't warrant on range but rather by capacity bars.

You can use Tony's range chart at http://dl.dropbox.com/u/35284720/postfiles/leafcharts/LEAFrangeChartVersion7G75.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; from http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=101293" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; "Use this 75% chart for a battery that has 10 of 12 capacity bar segments." to help you.

When I first brought the car to dealer with my range complaints the dealer said they made a software upgrade, and the range now indicates 80 miles. Sure enough when I got in the car it indicated 80 miles. But, I couldn't get close to 80 in the real world, and didn't notice any improvement any real world driving.

Forget the stupid GOM (guess-o-meter). As you've probably noticed, it's near worthless. You may want to get http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=44&t=14284" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; then http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=44&t=14285" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; along w/a suitable Android device and Bluetooth OBD2 dongle to read gids, to give you a better idea of your state of charge instead of the stupid GOM and the not-granular-enough 12 fuel bars.

You've written a lot and thanks for updating your location and answering some of the question posed at http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=275421#p275421" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. Can you answer the rest?

There are a couple key points we still need to know. Please answer them, otherwise for all we know, you have underinflated tires w/high rolling friction, alignment problems, are leaving lots of capacity on the table, etc.

 

[cwerdna]

cwerdna your questionnaire is only missing battery temp--how many temp bars there are. I think that is a crucial thing most people are not mentioning. 5 F means nothing outside if it's garage kept, whereas if it's not the difference can be massive. I think my out-door kept Leaf is the reason its range is so much worse than others at similar temps.

Thanks for suggesting that. That didn't occur to me when I originally wrote it (before I had a Leaf), but after having one, I think it's not the useful. I'll add it though.

Look at the range and overlap of temp ranges at http://www.mynissanleaf.com/wiki/index.php?title=Battery#Battery_Temperature_Gauge" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Note that there is a great deal of overlap. Consider, for example, a battery temperature of 80 degrees Fahrenheit. This could be displayed as 5, 6, or 7 bars. Nissan explains this by stating that the number of segments is corrected "according to the battery capacity."

IIRC, mine's mostly at 4 temp bars. I've seen 5 and never lower than 3. Yes, I've seen reports of people have 0 or 1 segment lit.

 

[DaveEV]

My current driving conditions are better than the HIGHWAY DRIVING IN THE SUMMER conditions above, but I don't come close to 70 mile range. I wish.

You are confusing many things here.

1. The "100 mile range" Nissan talked about had the fine-print disclaimer that this was on the LA4 cycle. You're never going to get this on the freeway. You can get a similar range by driving a constant 50 mph or so.
2. Your 70 mph freeway driving is probably nothing like the "HIGHWAY DRIVING IN THE SUMMER" conditions. Unfortunately, Nissan's descriptions there tell you very little as to what the actual drive cycle is like.
3. All the range numbers quoted are range from 100% to Turtle. You are likely excluding available capacity below low-battery-warning (LBW) which leaves significant range on the table. After you drive 40 miles - what does the dash say exactly?

A brand new LEAF at 70 mph will do about 70 miles from 100% to turtle (see Range Chart).

Your LEAF is down 2 capacity bars, or around 20-25%. Let's call it 22.5%. Your LEAF will do about 54 miles at 70 mph from 100% to turtle.

Understandably, you will probably start to get a bit nervous when you get down to 2 state-of-charge bars and are down in the low-mid teens range remaining. Or about 40 miles.

Your LEAF will easily make it 47 miles (your commute) at 70 mph before you drain it. But you will only have about 7 miles of range remaining. But if you slow down to 60 mph, you'll have almost 20 miles to spare.

Really what sucks is that your battery has lost 20-25% capacity in less than 3 years - this is twice as fast as what Nissan suggested the typical driver would experience - which is significantly more than what Mark Perry used to spout off in informal interviews.

 

[BTaylor]

I drove 60 mph on cruise control last night and this morning as suggested in another post. Impossible for me to do on a daily basis. The 91 freeway 55 freeway interchange is dangerous at 60 mpg since the slow line of the 91 is was driving in merges into the fast lane of the 55, and I needed to exit soon after this interchange. I thought I was going to get ran over. Additionally, I had lots of pissed off people backed up behind me on the way to work this morning when I was in the carpool lane to avoid regular traffic. It had me stressed and others driving behind me ticked off.

I drove from my house to my kids school and then to work for a total distance of 27.1 miles. As expected, driving at 60 mph I noticed an improvement. When I pulled in this morning I had four bars left and the range indicated 20 miles. Under normal driving conditions when I pull in to work I have two bars left and the range indicates 12 miles. My house is 23.5 miles from the office. So, I am not sure if I would make it back without charging.

I haven't measured the PSI of the tires they look fine. I know the dealer checked the tire pressure when I brought it to them last week. I saw them measure the alignment. So, these shouldn't be factors at all.

More importantly, the first year or so of vehicle ownership I could make my regular commute to and from work under normal driving conditions and habits with plenty of range to spar. I was able to drive to from my house to Dana Point Harbor and back, 68 miles, without issue. I was able to drive from my house to downtown Los Angeles and back without a problem, 74 miles. I can't come close to this now. I would be lucky to make it one way to any of these destinations. I estimate I have lost close to 50% of my initial range.

This car is not fit for its intended purpose. I am sick of hearing about capacity bars. I've only lost two yet I have lost close to half of my effective range. This is a defective product and I pissed Nissan won't do anything about it.

Anyone know someone who wants to buy a Nissan leaf with crippled range, but with 10 out of 12 capacity bars?

 

[DaveEV]

I haven't measured the PSI of the tires they look fine. I know the dealer checked the tire pressure when I brought it to them last week. I saw them measure the alignment. So, these shouldn't be factors at all.

Definitely check the tires. Just because they look fine, does not mean that they are fine. Pump them up to 40-42 PSI and it will help.

I've only lost two yet I have lost close to half of my effective range. This is a defective product and I pissed Nissan won't do anything about it.

That is the real issue - most were satisfied with the range when new - but after 2 years in So Cal that has greatly reduced capacity.

Do keep in mind that while you may feel you have lost half your effective range, it's really isn't that bad - you are just afraid to use the the last 30% available to you (and I don't blame you given the way the gauges read).

It shouldn't be necessary to buy aftermarket gauges to feel comfortable maximizing range of the vehicle, but it seems it's a requirement.

If you want to get out of your LEAF, your best bet is to probably trade it in for another Nissan. May be difficult to sell with the loss of two capacity bars.

 

[smkettner]

EPA, LA4, Nissan range should be rated for miles until the instrumentation shows ZERO miles remaining vs miles until car actually stops.
JMHO

 

[Stoaty]

I estimate I have lost close to 50% of my initial range.

No, you have lost 20-25% of your initial range. Buy a LeafDD (search the forum) or Leaf Spy (info in my signature), plug it in and stop worrying/guessing how much energy you have left in the battery. If you want to complain, that's fine, but don't expect others to be sympathetic when there is an easy solution to your problem.

 

[smkettner]

I estimate I have lost close to 50% of my initial range.

No, you have lost 20-25% of your initial range. Buy a LeafDD (search the forum) or Leaf Spy (info in my signature), plug it in and stop worrying/guessing how much energy you have left in the battery. If you want to complain, that's fine, but don't expect others to be sympathetic when there is an easy solution to your problem.

This is a HUGE FAIL to require such equipment to properly use the full capability of the vehicle.

 

[ampitupco]

It shouldn't be necessary to buy aftermarket gauges to feel comfortable maximizing range of the vehicle, but it seems it's a requirement.

This.

It's too bad the instrumentation is such garbage in our cars and there is no way to fix it. Without my LeafDD I don't know what I'd do.

 

[Stoaty]

This is a HUGE FAIL to require such equipment to properly use the full capability of the vehicle.

Agreed, but largely fixed with the % SOC in 2013 and later Leafs. They should really be displaying % Gids, which would let you know how much energy you have left, but they don't want to make the rapid rate of capacity loss so obvious.

 

[dgpcolorado]

It shouldn't be necessary to buy aftermarket gauges to feel comfortable maximizing range of the vehicle, but it seems it's a requirement.

This.

It's too bad the instrumentation is such garbage in our cars and there is no way to fix it. Without my LeafDD I don't know what I'd do.

Same here. LeafDD or LEAF Spy is a game changer for using the full range of the car. Now when I hit LBW at the bottom of my thousand foot elevation hill I don't give it a second thought. Yesterday I did 67.5 miles, with eight miles that were very muddy/slushy, and got home with 31 Gids. And knew that I would make it easily, thanks to LeafDD.

 

[smkettner]

The only reason for GOM to display lower than actual miles would be to avoid the towing service and customer inconvenience.

All Nissan has to do is limit out of power towing to once per year and $30 or some nominal fee after that.
Then fix the GOM to display correctly within 2 miles at end of charge and limit power sooner if necessary to express end of range correctly at the end.

EPA miles should be miles to "---" as the official rating. Maybe it is?

 

[CayenneSJLEAFy]

Agreed with Stoaty and dgpcolorado on this.

Despite trying to keep my battery pack cool during the summers, I lost my 1st capacity bar at 35K. Car is at Sunnyvale on the weekdays, parked in the shade, and in Fremont on the weekends. It's parked overnight during the past summers, charged at L1.

When I lost my 1st bar in June, 2013, I bought the LEAF DD, and it greatly helped me figure when/if I should park overnight outside, or in the garage (where it's hotter). It also gave me a much better idea of what the range would be (GID count) versus relying on the bars and GOM.

The LEAF DD helped me to monitor the state of degradation, and eventually decide if I should keep or sell our LEAF and move on.

Right at 1 capacity bar loss, I had 235 GIDs, so about 17% loss. 281 GIDs is when the battery is new. Throughout the summer, I watched as the GID count kept shrinking, and the range kept decreasing.

By late autumn (temperature was still consistently warm in the Bay Area), I was at 215-220 GIDs. As winter approached (and given the colder temperatures--now in the mid 50s), I was at 209 GIDs. At 100%, I can only get 54 miles in mixed local and highway driving before getting to VLBW. 209 GIDs is at 26% capacity loss--I should have lost 2 bars, but it still shows 1.

26% loss at 29 months of ownership (at 44K) is just awful--especially in a temperate climate, like the SF Bay Area. I've not QC'ed since the 1st bar loss, and did L1s during the summer. Suffered through 58-62 mph on freeways (no HOV).

I'm not likely to make the 4 bar loss buy 60K, and the battery-lease option is just not going to work--who will buy the car used if the battery is leased?

So enough was enough. I had to trade in the car (Modesto and Fairfield are just too far away for CarMax), and selling privately is just too much hassle to explain all the caveats (especially to a non-LEAFer). I traded in for a '14 Volt.

My wife and kids certainly miss our LEAF--it was very reliable, and the maintenance cost was so very low. It was also in pristine condition.

And they see our LEAF all the time, as it sits at Capital Chevy, prominently in the front of the lot--it's been sitting there for a month now. Next to it is a fellow '11 Black LEAF with 39K miles--that one has been there for 2 months. Surface rust on the brakes, cobwebs on the wheels are also telling--nobody has seriously looked or driven these 2 used LEAFs.

 

[Valdemar]

^^^ With the delivery of 9/5/11 my experience is very similar to yours. Babied the battery, lost 1st bar in May 2013 @33k miles. Expect to lose another any day now as the car just passed 47k miles. Not using LeafDD or the like. Somehow i can still make 60-70 miles in mixed mode. I have to charge at work now to make my commute but overall I don't feel the reduced range impacted my needs. Given the current rate of degradation I feel I can make it work for 3 more years or 100k miles (total). The DCQC infrastructure is improving rapidly which is a big help, so while disappointed I'm keeping it for now as trading it in will likely cost me more than to just run it to the ground.

 

[Stoaty]

Given the current rate of degradation I feel I can make it work for 3 more years or 100k miles (total). The DCQC infrastructure is improving rapidly which is a big help, so while disappointed I'm keeping it for now as trading it in will likely cost me more than to just run it to the ground.

Planning to keep mine until I can no longer drive from West L.A. to Claremont, CA (50 miles with 900 feet elevation gain) on a full charge. I think I will be OK down to about 40% loss of capacity. The problem is I don't know how quickly that will happen, I just know that it will be a lot faster than Nissan claimed when I bought my Leaf. Have lost 17.5% in 32 months.

 

[BTaylor]

I estimate I have lost close to 50% of my initial range.

No, you have lost 20-25% of your initial range. Buy a LeafDD (search the forum) or Leaf Spy (info in my signature), plug it in and stop worrying/guessing how much energy you have left in the battery. If you want to complain, that's fine, but don't expect others to be sympathetic when there is an easy solution to your problem.

This is a HUGE FAIL to require such equipment to properly use the full capability of the vehicle.

Agreed on the HUGE FAIL. I don't know what a LeafDD is. And I don't want to know what a LeafDD is. I just want to get from point A to point B and back again driving the car without a "LeafDD" or a flying unicorn. I used to be able to do that when I bought the car. Now I can't come close based upon everything the car tells me, and including Nissan techs (Kimo says I should get 45 to 51 miles which will get me to point A but not point B).

I can just imagine the reaction from my wife when I tell her to ignore the navigation system telling you have insufficient range, ignore the range indicator, ignore the voice coming from the car warning you about the range, ignore the flashing light on charge indicator showing "--" range, ignore the fact there are zero bars on the battery charge indicator. Trust in this device called a LeafDD. Yeah. That will go over well. I can't wait to tell any prospective buyer of the car that.

Let me rush and buy a LeafDD because that will solve all my problems!