Chevrolet Bolt & Bolt EUV

[Turnover]

The Volt 2 announcement was full of details. It seemed to me that the level of detail for the Bolt was so low that I didn't get the sense the car on stage was more than a shell. Still, I think the 200 mile bar being now out there will be a plus for all of us.

 

[sparky]

...but his biggest gripe is this... "there are soooo many Model S owners now and most of the SC stations are constantly being filled or long wait lines but there's no SC stations in the San Fernando valley and other key areas"

He said he's getting frustrated like other owners that there will not be enough SC stations to fill the amount of cars being sold....

That seems very odd. I frequently drive from Glendale to Santa Barbara and back in one day. I don't even bother to stop at the Oxnard SC. Maybe this fellow is in sales and puts 200 mi/day on his Model S. However, in the Valley, perhaps he could charge at the Tesla Service Center on Hayvenhurst or the Topanga showroom. If there's lots of owners showing up to do that, Tesla will get the message and put something better in place I think. Plus there's HPWC's at a lot of high-end hotels now. Gotta look for them though.

p.s. The one time I stopped at Oxnard SC, there was only one other Tesla there; 8 empty stalls.

 

[JasonA]

People are not going to be stopping at hotels to 80a or AC charging or be looking around when they are long distance driving with family. They want stuff in malls right off freeways, etc, places to eat & relax while they are DCFC'ing.

I was loving the Mission Viejo placement for CHAdeMO stuff, but for the San fernando area/Model S owners coming up from San Diego, that drive during the winter or summer before the big grade to make Harris Ranch can be a stretch!!

 

[NeilBlanchard]

I like it. I think they have a winnah on their hands.

They will sell it in 50 states, and some places overseas, as well. 80% charging in 45 minutes. Check. The new Volt has driver controlled regen on paddles on the back of the steering wheel. Check.

If it has a direct heating defroster, and heated seats and steering wheel - I will buy one in a millisecond!

 

[JasonA]

If they can still push CCS 50kw+ or more out there.. then it's a winner.. the combo plug is nice, I'll agree. I think CHAdeMO's biggest downfall is maintenance.

But I've been reading 80kw possible on the standard pins? :shock:

if so.. nice

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

Can we agree that GM now has a lead on Tesla with an affordable 200 mile EV at least from a schedule perspective?

no. we can maybe agree that they finished 2nd in the "provided info they may or may not be able to provide" behind Tesla.

scroll back to 2009 and 2010 and read the press releases about the Volt. They missed rather badly on several points. But Tesla is King of the sliding release date. But history means nothing. It does not matter how well built your Daddy's Chevy was built. This is a new day.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

Now Nissan will most certainly be required to have a 160-200 mile range option for LEAF 2.0. And I hope it's just that, an option. Unlike the views many of you have expressed, my 84 mile LEAF works for 95% of my driving. About once every 5 weeks I need to drive about 180 miles round trip, so if the difference in price between a 100-mile EV and a 200 mile EV is $4,000+ as I suspect it will be, I would be way money ahead to just use our gas car for those trips over 100 miles.

Have to agree that LEAF II wins this. Only rumors about what to expect but if dreaming and LEAF II comes with multiple pack options and the largest pack gets you 165-175 miles and its only a few thousand more than the current option (84 mile option should be $2500 less I am guessing)
but the middle option at the current pricing with a range of 125 miles would now cover 98% of the needs verses 95%

another thing we need to remember is GMs range predictions and pricing on the Volt and what happened later. So I have to think that Nissan's "175" and GM's "200" might not be all that far apart

 

[Flashman]

another thing we need to remember is GMs range predictions and pricing on the Volt and what happened later. So I have to think that Nissan's "175" and GM's "200" might not be all that far apart

Exactly...
and on Slate just found this gem from Ghosn...

"Update, Jan. 12, 2015, 4:55 p.m.: At a media briefing Monday afternoon in Detroit, Nissan said it too will aim for a 200-mile range on the next generation of its Leaf electric car, which is also due out in 2017. "We want to be competitive" with the Bolt, CEO Carlos Ghosn said, according to the Detroit News." "It may have even more range."

http://www.slate.com/blogs/future_t...hevy_bolt_concept_car_not_a_tesla_killer.html

 

[JasonA]

Don't count Tesla out yet!! :lol:

Elon hasn't spoken today yet.

 

[EVDRIVER]

Don't count Tesla out yet!! :lol:

Elon hasn't spoken today yet.

Because he does not want to announce the first price creep which usually means a second.

 

[EVDRIVER]

another thing we need to remember is GMs range predictions and pricing on the Volt and what happened later. So I have to think that Nissan's "175" and GM's "200" might not be all that far apart

Exactly...
and on Slate just found this gem from Ghosn...

"Update, Jan. 12, 2015, 4:55 p.m.: At a media briefing Monday afternoon in Detroit, Nissan said it too will aim for a 200-mile range on the next generation of its Leaf electric car, which is also due out in 2017. "We want to be competitive" with the Bolt, CEO Carlos Ghosn said, according to the Detroit News." "It may have even more range."

http://www.slate.com/blogs/future_t...hevy_bolt_concept_car_not_a_tesla_killer.html

Due out... FYI a 2018 model is released at the end of 2017 so due out could mean a 2018 year model. Hopefully they will offer an EV motor that actually offers acceleration that is worthy of an EV not a 0-10 second slug ICE. I don't expect GM to have poor acceleration. At least the LEAF should have updated NAV to 2001 standards :lol:

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

I wonder if it will have an (optional?) high-power charger. A 40kwh (guessing) car would take about seven hours to fill up with a 6.6kW charger, which takes ~30A input. I wonder if a 10kW charger would be available, as I think it'd significantly improve the utility of the car. That might make all the folks with 30A EVSEs at home sad, though. No difference in overnight charging, though.

on a 50 KW fast charger, you would only be adding a few minutes to the 80% charge time. your 7 hour parameters are assuming plugging in on "electrons" (IOW, no discernible stored charge, just voltage) which becomes rarer and rarer with longer ranges. so unless taking a road trip where using the L2 network for charging would a questionable decision, I don't see the issue.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

My take is that a concept car is a physical likeness of an idea. The Bolt certainly looks good, but how did it get to from one spot to another on stage? Did they use a new motor and battery or something that would work only for the stage presentation - It really doesn't matter if it is a concept car.

Personally, I feel like mentally blurring the lines between this car and a real car but I guess that is the point of GM's auto show presentation. :roll:

probably pushed it.

 

[sparky]

People are not going to be stopping at hotels to 80a or AC charging or be looking around when they are long distance driving with family. They want stuff in malls right off freeways, etc, places to eat & relax while they are DCFC'ing.

Agree, I was just trying to help this odd-bird Tesla owner who seems to wander around SFV. A winter-driving family-packed Bolt owner will need a more dense network than Tesla's I think. And there aren't enough spigots on the Chademos I've seen.

I was loving the Mission Viejo placement for CHAdeMO stuff, but for the San fernando area/Model S owners coming up from San Diego, that drive during the winter or summer before the big grade to make Harris Ranch can be a stretch!!

Jason, we're OT but I'm still confused. If an owner from SFV is driving from San Diego to Tejon Ranch (you meant Tejon, not Harris, yes?) wouldn't stopping at SJC and Culver City or Hawthorne be sufficient? What good would a SFV Supercharger do them for that trip? Granted, something more on the I-5 between SD and Tejon might be a good idea.

 

[palmermd]

If they can still push CCS 50kw+ or more out there.. then it's a winner.. the combo plug is nice, I'll agree. I think CHAdeMO's biggest downfall is maintenance.

But I've been reading 80kw possible on the standard pins? :shock:

if so.. nice

Can you elaborate on the maintenance issue? Possibly in a Chademo thread and then put a link here to your reply so it is in the correct location. What maintenance issue is there with Chademo that will be solved with CCS? My understanding the issues with maintenance are all power feed problems which will plague both types of connector.

 

[Moof]

The real takeaway is that we have 3 real car manufacturers promising 200 miles for a pretty reasonable prices in the next 2-3 years. Everything is vaporware until the first one drives off the lot, but it is good news for EV land regardless. It also likely means that there are multiple battery plants with cells they are pretty confident will yield a 40-50 kWh pack at an acceptable weight and price point, so more companies should follow suit shortly after (though probably not Toyota...).

Having more than just Teslas out there with good range should really help get the fast charging infrastructure moving along too.

 

[evnow]

The real takeaway is that we have 3 real car manufacturers promising 200 miles for a pretty reasonable prices in the next 2-3 years. Everything is vaporware until the first one drives off the lot, but it is good news for EV land regardless.

I don't think this level of pessimism is called for. Clearly Bolt, Leaf 2 (and Model 3) are a lot more solid than "vaporware". Yes the price and timelines may slip etc. - like it can happen with any product launch.

It also likely means that there are multiple battery plants with cells they are pretty confident will yield a 40-50 kWh pack at an acceptable weight and price point, so more companies should follow suit shortly after (though probably not Toyota...).

This is something I've been saying for a while. LG is confident they can provide the batteries in volume, density and at prices that allow small 200 mile EVs to be built by multiple OEMs.

I'm fairly sure some German OEMs will be producing 200 mile EVs in the same timeframe as well.

 

[Moof]

People are not going to be stopping at hotels to 80a or AC charging or be looking around when they are long distance driving with family. They want stuff in malls right off freeways, etc, places to eat & relax while they are DCFC'ing.

I'll make a few points as to longer range EV's and charging:

1) If most EV drivers have a ~150-200 mile range almost none will charge anywhere except at home while in their home town unless it is free. It is a very rare occasion that most folks drive >150 miles within their region per day. I predict the death of most level 2 public charging as a result. Without the constant fear of running out most folks just won't bother to plug in at the grocery store, local mall, etc. There will always be a vocal minority that will disagree I am sure.

2) Level 2 charging will make sense for locations like hotels on interstates where an owner might be happy to reserve a level 2 spot with their room for an extra $5-10 for the night just to avoid the hassle of fast charging before they settle in for the night when going on longer road trips. But they will only really be viable at destinations where you plan to be for an extended period of time well away from your house such as hotels, theme parks, work, and similar.

3) Fast charging time needs to be short compared to your drive time when doing a road trip down the interstate. Cruising at 70 mph down I5 will get you down to ~3 mi/kWh, meaning an average burn of about 20 kW. So fast charging below 100 kW is a losing proposition simply because you will lose over 20% of your time waiting for the darn thing to charge. Tesla nailed it with their 120 kW decision. Even faster would be better were it feasible and if the packs could readily accept most of that up to 80%.

4) In-town I see minimal need for public charging, as it will be mainly a need for out of towners. A few QC stations for people passing through, some banks of level 2's at major attractions, and maybe some at common public parking and that is about all that should be needed for the out of towners for most cities.

 

[Moof]

I don't think this level of pessimism is called for. Clearly Bolt, Leaf 2 (and Model 3) are a lot more solid than "vaporware". Yes the price and timelines may slip etc. - like it can happen with any product launch.

Until we hear pack sizes, delivery dates, and see some decent reports from folks test driving the mules or the pre-production ones they are all vaporware to me. The range quotes in particular are very dubious until we hear the context (i.e. EPA range, not marketing department range) My guess is that there are 2 or 3 sources of cells that are holding up well enough in accelerated age testing for these companies to make some bold predictions now that sourcing the battery pencils out. In the mean time stuff can happen. If a promising chemistry turns out to be a dud for some unexpected reason, it could delay rollout by years.

 

[evnow]

Until we hear pack sizes, delivery dates, and see some decent reports from folks test driving the mules or the pre-production ones they are all vaporware to me.

Then you are mis-using the term vaporware.

If a promising chemistry turns out to be a dud for some unexpected reason, it could delay rollout by years.

While this is possible - given the how wide-spread these announcements are (both in time and number of companies) - I think there is a high degree of confidence that this chemistry is for real. I've no doubt the packs have already undergone several rapid ageing tests by several companies at this point. There are probably mules running with this chemistry as well.