Chevrolet Bolt & Bolt EUV

[scottf200]

Compared to the risk of osborning Volt 2, what they can get from this reveal is very minimal.

Chevy disagrees with you. I don't think the Bolt will steal that many Volt customers. The gasoline backup really appeals to a lot of people.
The Leaf doesn't say much about how much people would like a 200mi EV.
The Model S doesn't say much about how much people would like one that costs 30k.
They're gauging interest. We'll see where it goes.

Gauging interesting. Glad to see someone with some common sense. Certainly they learned a lot with the Spark "trial" and building the brand new powerful and efficient motor and then integrating the battery type they did.

Certainly the battery will be liquid cooled as they've proven is valuable in the Volt and Nissan has proven to have an epic failure at (original warranty limit, dealers resetting bars and reselling used LEAFs, etc).

I heard instead of naming it Bolt they were going to call it pedal or flower but then Nissan's lawyers said that was too close to leaf. Ok ok, just trying to lighten it up. You guys are in quite a defensive mode.

 

[evnow]

Chevy disagrees with you.

Shouldn't be surprising at all. Infact I'd be worried when Chevy agrees with me. Afterall, they got bankrupt, not me

I don't think the Bolt will steal that many Volt customers. The gasoline backup really appeals to a lot of people.
The Leaf doesn't say much about how much people would like a 200mi EV.
The Model S doesn't say much about how much people would like one that costs 30k.
They're gauging interest. We'll see where it goes.

I disagree on most of these.

I know enough about how GM works to know that they wouldn't care about what this does to Volt 2 - and some exec wants this out to prove how well he can respond to Tesla.

 

[GregH]

+1!

Can't disagree more. Once you factor in cold weather and some battery aging, an 80 mile range drops to 50-60'ish. Throw in the current chaotic and fractured charging networks and many folks really would be happy to pay another 10-20% for 50-100% more range. 80 miles is a economical sweet spot, but a psychological loser.

I realize this might not be the best thread to hash out the merits of 200+ mile batteries (forgive me).. but even if you needed 50% more range than the existing Leaf in order to assure a minimum of 80 miles under any circumstance.. (say a 120 mile rated range) That's still a lot smaller/cheaper than 200 miles.

 

[jhm614]

The Volt will sell better than the Bolt in any market which lacks QC infrastructure. And today that's most of them.

Plus, many people don't want to wait for 45 minutes every 160 miles, even if there was a charger there. It's much more convenient taking 5 minutes to gas up every 350 miles. And the Volt can still do most commutes as 100% electric.

I'm pretty sure that there will be plenty of market for both of them.

I'm not sure this is accurate because the current 84 mi Leaf is already outselling the Volt. Of course, if the Volt is cheaper than the Bolt, that would probably change the equation.

 

[nosuchthing]

Say it ain't so: the fact we're getting 200-mile EVs by 2017 means we're getting 400-mile EVs in 2021. Now that is what sucks.

Where's Moore's law when we need it?

Off subject: Just (yet again) calculated my cost per mile on winter juice. 4 cents EV vs. 8.4 cents driving my 32 mpg ICE. Still half-price driving...

 

[scottf200]

Shouldn't be surprising at all. Infact I'd be worried when Chevy agrees with me. Afterall, they got bankrupt, not me

You also didn't get a $1.45 billion loan.

In January 2010, the Department of Energy awarded Nissan a $1.45 billion loan under the Department of Energy’s Advanced Technology Vehicles Manufacturing (ATVM) Loan Program. Nissan used the loan to construct one of the largest advanced battery manufacturing plants in the U.S., retool its Smyrna, Tennessee manufacturing facility for assembly of the all-electric LEAF vehicle, and to construct an efficient and environmentally friendly paint plant. Nissan also used the loan to develop an electric power train manufacturing line for the LEAF vehicle within its engine manufacturing facility in Decherd, Tennessee. http://energy.gov/lpo/nissan-north-america-inc" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[eloder]

Eh, my battery needs in a day are either under 40 miles or over 300+. The Volt is more oriented to people like me than the Bolt would be.

I'll keep my electric smart car though, and rent for those rare 300+ mile occasions gotta love a super low priced EV.

 

[GetOffYourGas]

How is GM expecting to be able to sell 2017 Volts, with only ~50 mile Electric range, at ~the same price as ~200 mile range 2017 Bolt BEVs?

The Volt will sell better than the Bolt in any market which lacks QC infrastructure. And today that's most of them...

And By 2017, what US markets do you expect will not have some DC infrastructure?

Anyway, assuming GM plans to build the Bolt in large numbers, I believe it has the market almost half-right.

I just don't think many BEV buyers who do have access to DC chargers will want to haul around an extra ~500 pounds and ~ $5,000 worth of (constantly depreciating and degrading) batteries every day, just so they can drive slightly longer before refueling, on the few days a year they drive more than 100-150 miles.

Ok, I'll bite. I will guess, geographically, that DC QC infrastructure will NOT grow into many new markets in the next 2 years. I'd love to be wrong here, but I suspect that it will continue to get denser on the west coast. Maybe it will even get denser in the Northeast Corridor. But overall, I suspect it will not grow to the point that it can support significantly longer trips even for a 200 mile BEV.

Even if it does grow, it will never reach the density of the Volt's "QC" infrastructure. At any gas station, the Volt can add over 300 miles in less than 5 minutes. That's hard to beat.

The Volt will sell better than the Bolt in any market which lacks QC infrastructure. And today that's most of them.

Plus, many people don't want to wait for 45 minutes every 160 miles, even if there was a charger there. It's much more convenient taking 5 minutes to gas up every 350 miles. And the Volt can still do most commutes as 100% electric.

I'm pretty sure that there will be plenty of market for both of them.

I'm not sure this is accurate because the current 84 mi Leaf is already outselling the Volt. Of course, if the Volt is cheaper than the Bolt, that would probably change the equation.

Fair enough point. But I do think the Volt's largest problems have been inventory and marketing. I don't believe that GM has been trying as hard as Nissan to sell their car.

 

[GRA]

BTW - anyone object if I make this the official GM Bolt thread?

Go for it.

 

[LTLFTcomposite]

I'm not sure this is accurate because the current 84 mi Leaf is already outselling the Volt. Of course, if the Volt is cheaper than the Bolt, that would probably change the equation.

People aren't not buying the volt because they prefer the LEAF, informed buyers have been holding off because they know 2.0 is just around the corner, and newcomers are unmotivated by $1.69 gas prices.

 

[tbleakne]

Even if the Bolt itself is great, I have no confidence that GM is going to make the same investment in charging that Tesla is doing.

The most important thing Tesla is doing right that no other manufacturer is doing is building a reliable, multi-stall DC high-power network infrastructure across the country at the spacings required for an EV with 200 mile maximum range. Nissan thought the government would do this, like Japan did, but in the US only OR and WA did this, and only with single-stall stations. The Los Angeles and Orange County area now has about 30 CHAdeMO stations, but at any given time a substantial fraction are broken, and there is almost never more than one at a given location, and the ones at dealerships are only available during business hours. This business model is useless for the mass market. At the few really busy Supercharger stations Teslas occasionally have to wait, but I have never heard of a SC station being completely offline. As usage builds, Tesla is building larger stations with as many as 12 stalls, and building them closer together so you can skip stations.

Musk has said he is willing to open his network to other manufacturers, but no one has come to see him. If someone did, that would get my attention.

The following WSJ article has some useful information about how GM plans to build the car, but as usual the WSJ spin on all things EV is negative at every turn.

http://www.wsj.com/articles/gm-readies-electric-rival-to-tesla-1420859986

 

[pkulak]

... the $35,000 car has been a disappointment despite hefty government subsidies.

Jesus, and we wonder why people think that Obama personally built the Chevy Volt. These idiots are saying that the federal government personally payed for a single car's development, instead of loaning an entire car company money that has since been payed back in full with interest.

 

[garsh]

... the $35,000 car has been a disappointment despite hefty government subsidies.

...These idiots are saying that the federal government personally payed for a single car's development...

Please refrain from ad-hominem attacks. They may have an agenda, but they're not idiots.

In particular, every Volt sold had a $7500 government subsidy.

 

[cwerdna]

... the $35,000 car has been a disappointment despite hefty government subsidies.

Jesus, and we wonder why people think that Obama personally built the Chevy Volt. These idiots are saying that the federal government personally payed for a single car's development, instead of loaning an entire car company money that has since been payed back in full with interest.

The ad I remember GM running on that loan was err.. rather loose w/the truth and misleading. See below:
http://www.forbes.com/2010/04/23/general-motors-economy-bailout-opinions-columnists-shikha-dalmia.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2010/04/treasury-gm-payback-claims-not-misleading/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/gms-false-claim-that-bailout-was-paid-back-in-full-breaks-advertisings-rule-no1/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://money.cnn.com/2010/04/21/autos/gm_loan_repayment/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

In the end, the US government still lost ~$10 or $11 billion in bailing out GM. See below, for example:
http://www.cnbc.com/id/101628848" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.detroitnews.com/story/business/autos/2014/12/29/federal-government-lost-auto-bailout/21019899/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2013/12/09/249815202/government-sells-last-shares-in-gm-loses-10-billion" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[Nubo]

... the $35,000 car has been a disappointment despite hefty government subsidies.

...These idiots are saying that the federal government personally payed for a single car's development...

Please refrain from ad-hominem attacks. They may have an agenda, but they're not idiots.

In particular, every Volt sold had a $7500 government subsidy.

Untrue. Not everyone who bought the car had $7500 in tax liabilities to offset. As for the others, they had their taxes reduced; they were not given anything.

 

[dhanson865]

... the $35,000 car

In particular, every Volt sold had a $7500 government subsidy.

Really, so you mean if I go sign on the dotted line to buy a Volt I'll immediately get a raise doubling my salary? Man I'd take that deal.

The last time I looked I'd get about 2 or 3 thousand off. So if you can guarantee me $7500 off then I get a $50,000* a year raise for buying a $35,000 car!

Sweet, where is my nearest Chevy dealer and how does he know my boss/HR department so he can make that raise happen?

*very rough figure I'm not sure how much of a raise it would take to get me the $7500 tax liability.

 

[TomT]

Well, then, following that logic, the government also paid for every EV and PHEV from every manufacturer...

In particular, every Volt sold had a $7500 government subsidy.

 

[JasonA]

I have no confidence that GM is going to make the same investment in charging that Tesla is doing.

The most important thing Tesla is doing right that no other manufacturer is doing is building a reliable, multi-stall DC high-power network infrastructure

You know what's interesting Tom is that yesterday I was at the Thousand Oaks Blink CHAdeMO station testing the Rav and up came a Tesla owner with a test adapter.

He was test testing because they could not get the Bling DCFC'ers to work with the Tesla unit but his biggest gripe is this... "there are soooo many Model S owners now and most of the SC stations are constantly being filled or long wait lines but there's no SC stations in the San Fernando valley and other key areas"

He said he's getting frustrated like other owners that there will not be enough SC stations to fill the amount of cars being sold.

P.S. The Model S didn't charge... The Rav did! :lol: good job guys!

 

[sparky]

As a concept for the 2018 timeframe the Bolt is weak-sauce. It does appear to be the same car many of us saw as a focus group several months ago. In that case, the low cost of 200 mi BEV range seemed to be main thrust, which I found compelling.
But, if this is the sole concept to arise from the famous committee to study Tesla, I feel Tesla has nothing to fear. This is a LEAF competitor and GM risks little except a few Volt-2 sales.

The posture of the major car makers is that BEVs are still the odd step-child.
The subtext of a true 200-mi EV for ~$30k means a 300 mi version on a larger platform for $45k.
Such a platform would be high-performance, upscale and include CUV, a light-duty pickup truck and nationwide supercharging. That would be a concept statement worthy of a major announcement with Tesla uttered in the same sentence as competitor.
But, such a concept would compete with existing ICE money makers and require the dealer network understand and be willing to sell a low-maintenance BEV. It would eat into sales of their most popular products, what marketers grimly refer to as "knifing the baby".

Musk's snarky reply, that he would establish a committee to study their committee, seems appropriate.

On the positive side, I guess it's better than just a Volt-2 announcement. I was hoping for so much more.

 

[edatoakrun]

Anyone been able to find the actual dimensions of the Bolt?

...a tall five-door hatchback body, remarkably similar in proportion to a slightly longer BMW i3...

http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1096270_2018-chevrolet-bolt-electric-car-what-it-is-isnt-what-it-means-for-tesla" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

If that is correct (from photos, it looked a little wider than the I-3 to me) it certainly makes 200 mile (EPA?) range more likely.

As I've posted before, if you need to seat more than four in a BEV, and optimize the high-speed (freeway) range, aerodynamic efficiency dictates you make the car longer, not wider, and add a third row of seats, allowing six passengers (that's even better than five-right?).

You don't necessarily need to fit an adult-sized third row of seats.

The fifth seat in the Volt gen two, and the third row seats in the Tesla S, are obviously child seats already.