Evoforce
Well-known member
Stanton said:
Mine took a little over 6 weeks.
Capacity Loss on 2011-2012 LEAFs
- Thread starter azdre
- Start date
Help Support My Nissan Leaf Forum:
Mine took a little over 6 weeks.
DiamondDan73
Well-known member
To be fair, he did say 4-6 weeks. I just went with the 6 weeks and am hoping for 4. I can't wait! No more getting home with 2-4 miles on the GOM.
cwerdna
Well-known member
Not sure we need another thread on losing capacity bars. I think these posts should be moved into the one of the applicable '11 or '12 Leaf capacity loss threads.
OK, I'm starting to get the picture. 
An extended metaphor to explain lithium ion battery degradation.
By Dave
Battery = Theater
Anode = Lobby (carbon)
Cathode = Band on Stage (Lithium with other stuff)
Lithium ions = Chemically impaired stoners
Electrons = Stoner girlfriends
High resistance pathway = Rain
Copper conductors = BFFs with umbrellas
Electrical load (motor) = Pimply geeks
Electrolyte = the audience
Charged particle driving fields = Security, young love
Reacted electrolyte film = audience wall at lobby door
Initial conditions: Charged theater.
The band is playing. The stoners are stuck in the lobby as intercalated carbon.
They want to be with the band on stage.
Initially, the audience will let them through, but won't let their girlfriends go with (some object to the tats, some are rabid misogynists.)
Bad news, the girls are stuck in the lobby trying to get to their boyfriends on stage.
Good news, they can go outside and in through the stage door in back.
Bad news, it's raining outside.
Good news, the BFFs form a line with their umbrellas to facilitate true love and get the girlfriends from the lobby to the stage door through the rain.
Bad news, the pimply geeks crash the BFF line and get in the way. They are extremely jealous and don't understand why the GFs hang with the scrawny loser stoners not them.
Good news, the GFs are armed with handbags and flip knives and can threaten or drive the geeks out of the way (useful work.)
When the GFs and the stoners are all on stage, no more work can be done, the battery is discharged.
But Security can push the stoners back through the crowd to the lobby to re-charge the scenario. Girlfriends follow outside (geeks out of the way.)
Things go bad when the theater gets hot.
The crowd gets sweaty and smelly and starts to object to the stoners movement from the lobby to the stage.
They form a barrier at the lobby door and won't let the lithium ions thru.
Everything slowly grinds to a halt because the stoners can't get to the stage, the girlfriends are stuck wherever the boyfriends are and the geeks outside don't get pushed around any more.
Even when the theater cools down, the audience remembers how the stoners insulted them and won't let the scumbags pass.
If you don't get the theater hot, the audience will let the stoners pass no prob.
If you leave the stoners on stage (theater uncharged), they don't smell up the lobby and the audience doesn't form the impediment to movement but you don't move any geeks outside either.
So I'm trying to keep my Leaf at around 50% SOC as a balance between usefulness (charged) and longevity (cool and discharged.)
You gotta have some stoners in the lobby (charged battery) or the car isn't very useful.
But the audience will, specially when it's hot, build a permanent wall against stoner movement and the theater loses its ability to push the geeks around with girlfriends following stoners. In the words of the great late 20th century philosopher, Ted, who said, "Whoa...Dude."
Anyone want to correct the model here like how it applies to degradation from depth of discharge
or propose units for stoner girlfriends (e.g. the Courtney?)
An extended metaphor to explain lithium ion battery degradation.
By Dave
Battery = Theater
Anode = Lobby (carbon)
Cathode = Band on Stage (Lithium with other stuff)
Lithium ions = Chemically impaired stoners
Electrons = Stoner girlfriends
High resistance pathway = Rain
Copper conductors = BFFs with umbrellas
Electrical load (motor) = Pimply geeks
Electrolyte = the audience
Charged particle driving fields = Security, young love
Reacted electrolyte film = audience wall at lobby door
Initial conditions: Charged theater.
The band is playing. The stoners are stuck in the lobby as intercalated carbon.
They want to be with the band on stage.
Initially, the audience will let them through, but won't let their girlfriends go with (some object to the tats, some are rabid misogynists.)
Bad news, the girls are stuck in the lobby trying to get to their boyfriends on stage.
Good news, they can go outside and in through the stage door in back.
Bad news, it's raining outside.
Good news, the BFFs form a line with their umbrellas to facilitate true love and get the girlfriends from the lobby to the stage door through the rain.
Bad news, the pimply geeks crash the BFF line and get in the way. They are extremely jealous and don't understand why the GFs hang with the scrawny loser stoners not them.
Good news, the GFs are armed with handbags and flip knives and can threaten or drive the geeks out of the way (useful work.)
When the GFs and the stoners are all on stage, no more work can be done, the battery is discharged.
But Security can push the stoners back through the crowd to the lobby to re-charge the scenario. Girlfriends follow outside (geeks out of the way.)
Things go bad when the theater gets hot.
The crowd gets sweaty and smelly and starts to object to the stoners movement from the lobby to the stage.
They form a barrier at the lobby door and won't let the lithium ions thru.
Everything slowly grinds to a halt because the stoners can't get to the stage, the girlfriends are stuck wherever the boyfriends are and the geeks outside don't get pushed around any more.
Even when the theater cools down, the audience remembers how the stoners insulted them and won't let the scumbags pass.
If you don't get the theater hot, the audience will let the stoners pass no prob.
If you leave the stoners on stage (theater uncharged), they don't smell up the lobby and the audience doesn't form the impediment to movement but you don't move any geeks outside either.
So I'm trying to keep my Leaf at around 50% SOC as a balance between usefulness (charged) and longevity (cool and discharged.)
You gotta have some stoners in the lobby (charged battery) or the car isn't very useful.
But the audience will, specially when it's hot, build a permanent wall against stoner movement and the theater loses its ability to push the geeks around with girlfriends following stoners. In the words of the great late 20th century philosopher, Ted, who said, "Whoa...Dude."
Anyone want to correct the model here like how it applies to degradation from depth of discharge
or propose units for stoner girlfriends (e.g. the Courtney?)
arnis
Well-known member
Getting more than 90% on the stage will dramatically increase sweating for everybody in the theater.
Even at 80% discharged there is already some smell in the theater building up.
In addition to keeping near 50:50 try not to get too many on the stage. Or if you do keep them calm, no more
than 20kW of music allowed at any given moment.
Also playing Mozart with the right foot will keep the inhabitants less sweaty even if AC is not working in the building.
Even at 80% discharged there is already some smell in the theater building up.
In addition to keeping near 50:50 try not to get too many on the stage. Or if you do keep them calm, no more
than 20kW of music allowed at any given moment.
Also playing Mozart with the right foot will keep the inhabitants less sweaty even if AC is not working in the building.
arnis said:
ONLY(?) 20kW of sound?
Less see, that corresponds to threshold of pain (1w/m^2) at @ 40 meters out and ~150dB one meter from the stack where the band is.
Maybe the band needs armor?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hM3lYIWlYdA
Am I right in interpreting this?
The damage done by deep discharges comes about from increased pack temperature from heating (not associated with anode film caused increased internal resistance) during charge or discharge? The heating leads to a common path of film generation from electrolyte reactions at the carbon?
Or does the increased sweating come from a hormonal problem, not from increased theater temperature.
arnis
Well-known member
Many things together. If cell is at low voltage (low SOC) same power output requires more amps. More amps means
more current. More current means faster discharge. Faster discharge means less efficiency. Less efficiency means
more heat. And we all know the story about heat. Everything happens faster and it is not weight loss nor cancer cure
Plus chemical disturbance you mentioned (not sure is that correct as I forgot already). It should not be
that obvious at "safe low voltage" Leaf allows but at the 80kW rate that is possible right before turtle? I don't think so.
I've concluded that things get really nasty below very low battery warning. About 20% of all heat generation
happens during last 5% of juice extraction. Some papers mentioned optimal lower voltage for discharge to be 3,5V per cell.
more current. More current means faster discharge. Faster discharge means less efficiency. Less efficiency means
more heat. And we all know the story about heat. Everything happens faster and it is not weight loss nor cancer cure
Plus chemical disturbance you mentioned (not sure is that correct as I forgot already). It should not be
that obvious at "safe low voltage" Leaf allows but at the 80kW rate that is possible right before turtle? I don't think so.
I've concluded that things get really nasty below very low battery warning. About 20% of all heat generation
happens during last 5% of juice extraction. Some papers mentioned optimal lower voltage for discharge to be 3,5V per cell.
arnis said:
Ah, I see, thanks.
Increased current to satisfy a given power demand (P=IE where P is constant and E is reduced,) decreased efficiency trying to get more current out of the same or even less capable (less charged) electrode materials.
I expect the chemical disturbance you referred to me referring to is the increased internal resistance coming from oxidized electrolyte contaminating at least the carbon electrode.
All of these add to cell heating and increased temperature and yet even more oxidization of electrolyte to further gum up the electrode(s).
It's all so complicated compared to fuel+oxidizer+spark -> BOOM!
Wennfred
Well-known member
Battery is in, Nissan called, they want the Leaf on Monday. 25 Day wait time.
Wennfred
Well-known member
Leaf ready for pick up, installed Monday, charged all day Tuesday and test drove, called Wednesday at 10;19am for pick up.
Mossy Nissan Chula Vista.
Mossy Nissan Chula Vista.
Evoforce
Well-known member
Wennfred said:
Cool! You will enjoy the like new performance. Have fun!
Wennfred
Well-known member
Wennfred
Well-known member
Please, Little help here. Current parameters are:
Year : 2012
Vin : JN1AZOCP4CT017912
DATE : 12/11 on label on drivers door
AHR= 47.34
SOH= 72%
ODO=39,165
PURCHASE DATE : Mar 2012
Do I have any chance getting a warranty replacement if I start driving & recharging more aggressively?
Thanks, rickcama
Year : 2012
Vin : JN1AZOCP4CT017912
DATE : 12/11 on label on drivers door
AHR= 47.34
SOH= 72%
ODO=39,165
PURCHASE DATE : Mar 2012
Do I have any chance getting a warranty replacement if I start driving & recharging more aggressively?
Thanks, rickcama
keydiver
Well-known member
That mostly depends on where you live and how much you drive it, but it looks highly likely to me. Drive fast, charge hard, charge to 100% and leave it sit, etc. Basically, do just the opposite of everything that I did to preserve the battery for 4 years. In this case, being nice to your battery just allows Nissan to get off easy without replacing a defective battery.
Stanton
Well-known member
Wennfred said:
I'd recognize a LeafDD display anywhere!
DiamondDan73
Well-known member
Almost 7 weeks and no Battery
dhanson865
Well-known member
dhanson865 said:
The quote above was from Nov 21 2015 which was one month before start of winter my stats were:
2015 Nov 21 51.463 AHr, 78% SOH, 60.10 Hx
2015 Dec 21 51.345 AHr, 78% SOH, 59.85 Hx (roughly first day of winter)
2016 Jan 21 51.194 AHr, 78% SOH, 59.49 Hx
2016 Feb 21 50.965 AHr, 77% SOH, 58.96 Hx
2016 Mar 21 50.735 AHr, 77% SOH, 58.52 Hx (roughly first day of spring)
So even with winter driving and no heat exposure of any significance AHr, SOH, and Hx all dropped noticeably during the coldest of winter months.
I have about 5 weeks to go before I can give a one year / 12 month comparison.
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