vrwl
Well-known member
LOL! Ok! I didn't even look at the location of the dealership, just assumed it was his since he posted it. Nevermind, go back to your regularly scheduled programming... 
Capacity Loss on 2011-2012 LEAFs
- Thread starter azdre
- Start date
Help Support My Nissan Leaf Forum:
With leases currently this low, after monthly gas savings, you're almost driving a new car for free. Of note is Ford's 10,500 mile per year limit on their lease agreement vs 12,000 for the LEAF. I hope Nissan goes to a short duration, lease only option for the LEAF in hot environments or at least alerts buyers to the issues being seen. A 2 year lease is the only way to go if you're going to drive an EV in Phoenix.
http://www.greencarreports.com/news...se-on-2012-ford-focus-electric-matches-nissan
http://www.greencarreports.com/news...se-on-2012-ford-focus-electric-matches-nissan
TRONZ
Well-known member
Just a quick check-in.
LEAF #202, 21 months, 20,757 miles, 100% on L1 every day, All 12 capacity bars present.
LEAF #202, 21 months, 20,757 miles, 100% on L1 every day, All 12 capacity bars present.
TonyWilliams
Well-known member
TRONZ said:
Have you put a Gidmeter on it? If not, I'm confident somebody nearby can.
gaswalla
Well-known member
TonyWilliams said:
Why do you want to ruin his happiness?
edatoakrun
Well-known member
New reports of capacity bar loss slowed to a trickle after September, and none have been reported for 18 days to date.
http://mynissanleaf.com/wiki/index.php?title=Real_World_Battery_Capacity_Loss#four_bars" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
As I have mentioned before, the rate of bar loss until next Spring will be a strong indicator of the relative contributions of actual capacity loss to "gauge error", in causing capacity bar loss. If the capacity bars were accurate (and the LEAF BMS does not adapt to temperature, limiting charge levels in hotter conditions) large numbers of new LEAFs should still be losing bars, albeit likely at a slower rate than during the Summer, when they may have actually been losing capacity at a more rapid rate.
IMO it is beginning to look like "gauge error", corresponding to battery/ambient temperatures, has very likely been a major, or even predominant, cause of LEAF capacity bar loss.
http://mynissanleaf.com/wiki/index.php?title=Real_World_Battery_Capacity_Loss#four_bars" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
As I have mentioned before, the rate of bar loss until next Spring will be a strong indicator of the relative contributions of actual capacity loss to "gauge error", in causing capacity bar loss. If the capacity bars were accurate (and the LEAF BMS does not adapt to temperature, limiting charge levels in hotter conditions) large numbers of new LEAFs should still be losing bars, albeit likely at a slower rate than during the Summer, when they may have actually been losing capacity at a more rapid rate.
IMO it is beginning to look like "gauge error", corresponding to battery/ambient temperatures, has very likely been a major, or even predominant, cause of LEAF capacity bar loss.
TonyWilliams
Well-known member
gaswalla said:
Heck, I assume folks want to know the facts!! Tronz, if you have a way to measure power from the wall, or your EVSE can measure power, here's what a brand new battery will do:
Energy from the wall from dead to 100%: 25.414 kWh
Energy from the onboard charger to battery: 22.031 kWh (86.6% charger efficiency)
Energy from the battery during discharge: 21.381 kWh (our 21kWh useable at 70F)
You can gauge battery capacity based on the above data.
DaveinOlyWA
Well-known member
edatoakrun said:
what good is a BMS that does not adapt? temperature is playing havoc with our data and the instrumentation so ya, we should see very few reports of lost bars until next Summer (or Spring in Phoenix :? )
maybe we should take out the "tree meter" and put in a "battery adjustment" meter based on absolute value of "1" as the pack status wanders from optimal, the value is lowered to .9 or whatever. that way we dont have to wait for Nissan to fix the software that controls these "adjustments." we can simply whip out our sliderule and recompute the dash info ourselves
DaveinOlyWA said:we can simply whip out our sliderule and recompute the dash info ourselves
That would be after I take a lesson to re-learn how to use my slide-rule (which I still have from high-school, and wasn't particularly adept at using then!)
Stoaty
Well-known member
One more piece of evidence that charging to 100% doesn't appear to be a major factor affecting battery life (not that I am going to change my habits, though, since it may still make a couple percent difference per year). A bit surprising, but it certainly didn't appear to be a significant factor in the Arizona capacity bar loss saga.TRONZ said:
edatoakrun
Well-known member
Stoaty said:
Or, just that his LEAF, living ~5 miles (?) from the Pacific Ocean, doesn't suffer from the "gauge error" problem, the more rapid capacity loss, or (perhaps) BMS charge limitation, caused by exposure to higher temperatures?
Do you really feel you have access to the statistically significant data required to make that statement?
edatoakrun
Well-known member
DaveinOlyWA said:
I agree that temperature adaptable BMS would probably be a very good idea in any non-ATM EV.
But it is possible Nissan had reasons to omit this feature, if it in fact did.
At his point, I don't think we can rule out LEAF adaptive BMS, taking into account ambient temperatures (and perhaps other battery use factors) can be ruled out, though many believers in "premature battery degradation" seem to have done so.
AFAIK, there has been a "don't ask, don't tell" policy on the BMS subject, both by those who have had access to Nissan, and Nissan itself, on the battery life/capacity and range loss question.
edatoakrun said:
If it is a gauge error, why aren't bars reappearing with cooler temps? Why would it only go one way? Could it be that the capacity levels have dropped below the "quick" 20% level of the degradation curve and have now leveled off for the slower death spiral toward that last 10%? These two factors could be in play: 1.The cooler temps and 2. A slower capacity loss with time because the packs are beyond the "fast" first 15% loss on the curve already.
TonyWilliams
Well-known member
Nissan's own data suggests faster degradation than originally forecast, even for Boston. Yes, the instruments aren't doing so well, either.
How that is so difficult to follow?
How that is so difficult to follow?
DaveinOlyWA
Well-known member
in Nissan's nominal line we have SOC remaining by year
1; 92 loss of 8%
2; 88 loss of 4%
3; 84 loss of 4%
4; 82 loss of 2%
5; 80 loss of 2%
which means that AZ owners who lost 4X this year would lose 2X next two years and X per year after that.
for me since i have lost 5-6% (of which i cannot directly measure) i am projected to be maybe
1; 95
2; 92.5
3; 90
4; 88.75
5; 87.5
or we could look at it another way with TaylorSF who has 57,000 miles and about a 12-14% degradation. if we equate a year being 12,000 miles then he is only a few % off my scenario.
so thinking maybe Nissan's "nominal" should be renamed to "optimal?"
1; 92 loss of 8%
2; 88 loss of 4%
3; 84 loss of 4%
4; 82 loss of 2%
5; 80 loss of 2%
which means that AZ owners who lost 4X this year would lose 2X next two years and X per year after that.
for me since i have lost 5-6% (of which i cannot directly measure) i am projected to be maybe
1; 95
2; 92.5
3; 90
4; 88.75
5; 87.5
or we could look at it another way with TaylorSF who has 57,000 miles and about a 12-14% degradation. if we equate a year being 12,000 miles then he is only a few % off my scenario.
so thinking maybe Nissan's "nominal" should be renamed to "optimal?"
Stoaty
Well-known member
I don't follow you here. Boston shows 84% capacity remaining after 5 years from the graph TickTock made. Isn't that above 80%?TonyWilliams said:
Randy3
Well-known member
I called 1-877-nogasev today to report loss of battery capacity. I spoke with Brenda and received case # 9779455.
She asked about odom reading, when last recall/service was done, when last battery check was done, current range (62 miles actual, on D setting without hypermiling), what range I got before (77 actual same driving style), and what dealer did any service. She explained that they don't warranty battery capacity, I asked if I should be speaking to an attorney instead of speaking to Nissan (she said she is obligated to tell me certain things, like this). Oh, she also asked how I knew that the first battery capacity bar represented 15%. I told her that the forum has pictures of documents, manuals, etc. and I saw it in the forum. She advised me that Nissan does not support any forum (like this one).
She told me that Nissan is reconsidering their procedure when customers call with battery capacity issues and told me that she would call me back when she has been told about the (possibly) new procedures. She expects this to happen early next week.
I'm not sure what I want out of this. I love my LEAF and I don't need it to get more than 50-60 miles per charge, except for those times when I like to push the limits by going to either the San Francisco Bay Area or to Yosemite National Park. I waited a couple of weeks to call Nissan, after losing the bar and confirming that the range has really dropped. What really moved me to call Nissan on this was Electric Auto Association's LEAF survey. After filling it out, I sorted the results by odometer reading found that my car lost it's first bar with a pretty low reading. It's just too early, at 14,000 miles and 21 months age, to lose 15% of the battery.
When battery improvements are made, Nissan better remember those of us who are their early supporters.
She asked about odom reading, when last recall/service was done, when last battery check was done, current range (62 miles actual, on D setting without hypermiling), what range I got before (77 actual same driving style), and what dealer did any service. She explained that they don't warranty battery capacity, I asked if I should be speaking to an attorney instead of speaking to Nissan (she said she is obligated to tell me certain things, like this). Oh, she also asked how I knew that the first battery capacity bar represented 15%. I told her that the forum has pictures of documents, manuals, etc. and I saw it in the forum. She advised me that Nissan does not support any forum (like this one).
She told me that Nissan is reconsidering their procedure when customers call with battery capacity issues and told me that she would call me back when she has been told about the (possibly) new procedures. She expects this to happen early next week.
I'm not sure what I want out of this. I love my LEAF and I don't need it to get more than 50-60 miles per charge, except for those times when I like to push the limits by going to either the San Francisco Bay Area or to Yosemite National Park. I waited a couple of weeks to call Nissan, after losing the bar and confirming that the range has really dropped. What really moved me to call Nissan on this was Electric Auto Association's LEAF survey. After filling it out, I sorted the results by odometer reading found that my car lost it's first bar with a pretty low reading. It's just too early, at 14,000 miles and 21 months age, to lose 15% of the battery.
When battery improvements are made, Nissan better remember those of us who are their early supporters.
Randy3 said:
leafkabob
Well-known member
Don't count on it. I am still astounded at Nissan's scrambled response to the battery capacity loss issue. I was instructed to take my car to the dealer to meet with a Nissan engineer who would test my car. When I met with the field rep (not engineer) he assured me that within a week or so of his test, I would be contacted by someone from the Arbitration department. In response to a flippant comment from me that I expected to leave that day with more capacity showing than when I arrived (a la Tick Tock), he very seriously told me that "Nissan is taking this very, very seriously. They are going to do something for you. I don't know what it is, but they are going to do something for you."Randy3 said:
The joke is that it has been two weeks since the test and I haven't heard from anyone. And my very own Nissan Customer Service phone rep isn't returning my calls. Perhaps I'm being impatient, but really, how hard is it to communicate?
TonyWilliams
Well-known member
Stoaty said:
At 7600 - 7800 miles, if I recall.
TonyWilliams
Well-known member
Randy3 said:
There is a San Diego law firm looking for California plaintiffs for a "well researched" class action law suit. Let me know if you're interested.
I love these "talking head" responses, as if Nissan's support or lack of support of any forum site has any connection to the facts surrounding battery degradation.
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