Capacity Loss on 2011-2012 LEAFs

[cwerdna]

On a related note, cwerdna mentioned how Toyota would invite a group of active participants from Priuschat to a private event. If such invites were not limited to one or two people on Nissan's speed dial, it would create a lot of goodwill, and help improve communication. That would be my two cents, anyway.

That was to the unveiling of the 2010 Prius in January 09. There's a public thread (and brief video) at http://priuschat.com/threads/priuschat-goes-to-detroit-for-2010-prius-debut.97605/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. I'm in the video. There were more than just some active Priuschatters. Wayne Gerdes (famous hypermiler), one of the folks that runs a Prius Yahoo group and some from cleanmpg.com were also there.

I'd imagine nothing like that might happen again until the next gen of Prius liftback, if they ever decide to do one. We were absolutely thrilled to be invited and I know the event wasn't cheap for Toyota. The chief engineer of the that generation of Prius also came out to answer questions. I was surprised they decided to host such an event at all and that I was amongst those invited.

I know that periodically, when Toyota has new hybrid/PHEV/EV models, they do fly Danny (Priuschat founder) and usually the Prius Experts (as designated by Toyota, they're not Toyota employees) out to events where they get briefings and get very long test drives (sometimes hours). This happened w/the PHV Prius prototypes, RAV4 EV, and the vehicles shown at 2011's Richmond, CA Green Drive Expo. Most of those folks also happen to be Priuschat moderators.

(OTOH, https://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=120224228002652" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; was a video the PHV Prius prototype event. I know that some of the stuff they were shown was under NDA. There were other videos for other events they were invited to.)

The Prius Experts + a few other folks have sometimes been loaned cars by Toyota (not me) for a few days, like the PHV Prius prototype.

 

[TomT]

Yes, but I am now much more conservative and far less vocal in recommending the Leaf based on my experiences and those of others... I also no longer ever recommend purchasing as opposed to leasing.

There is where I think Nissan is blowing it... the first wave of customers can generate a ton of sales. We are the canary in the coal mine to friends and family. Personally, I am sure I can generate at least ten~ unit sales as a trusted recommender. Nissan Leaf could very well turn into a Harvard Business Case Study!

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

On a related note, cwerdna mentioned how Toyota would invite a group of active participants from Priuschat to a private event. If such invites were not limited to one or two people on Nissan's speed dial, it would create a lot of goodwill, and help improve communication. That would be my two cents, anyway.

That was to the unveiling of the 2010 Prius in January 09. There's a public thread (and brief video) at http://priuschat.com/threads/priuschat-goes-to-detroit-for-2010-prius-debut.97605/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. I'm in the video. There were more than just some active Priuschatters.

oh great... a video of me crawling around on the floor

 

[GRA]

Perhaps they've lost some capacity and are waiting for cooler weather to see if it comes back! :lol:

Gentlemen, plug in your Gid meters! :lol:

There is where I think Nissan is blowing it... the first wave of customers can generate a ton of sales. We are the canary in the coal mine to friends and family. Personally, I am sure I can generate at least ten~ unit sales as a trusted recommender. Nissan Leaf could very well turn into a Harvard Business Case Study!

I have sold more than this for Nissan. I'm still selling; I just make it clear that leasing is the only logical way to drive the LEAF.

Indeed, Nissan's stance was pretty enigmatic, even before we suffered through the bout of battery angst this summer. Although they gave clear positive signals recently, I have hard time recognizing a cohesive approach in this regard. I don't know, perhaps I'm the only one. The advisory board might fill some of this void, but I would think that they could do better on the sales side, and engage owners more broadly.

I thought they were giving positive signals, too, until I dealt with them last week and realized they had simply decided to double down on denial and their position now is to stonewall, stonewall, stonewall, in a bid to buy them more time and hope that we get tired and stop badgering. They quieted the loudest people--the ones who were going on TV--so maybe that's their definition of a customer-relations success.

I've PM'd Chelsea about my unfortunate and unproductive exchange with Nissan, but haven't heard back from her yet.

Indeed. I've thought that Nissan's statement that they would deal with owners who have battery problems on an individual basis needed translation:

"Nissan North America fully intends to stand behind its products and do right by their owners, but only when we're forced to. If you're not willing to waste a great deal of your time badgering us, especially by appearing in a TV news expose', we'll ignore you or, if that doesn't work, shine you on for as long as it amuses us. We value our short-term bottom line far more than our long-term reputation; we learned about more than quality circles from American car companies. Ignoring customer complaints over quality and performance issues has a long history in American car manufacturing, and you can't claim that shoddy practices have affected the corporate reputations, market shares or profitability of U.S. car companies vis-a-vis Japanese ones." (Aide hurriedly whispers into ear of Nissan North America Exec . . . Really? Starting in the 1960s? Huh, learn something new every day.) Clears throat . . .

"Anyway, rest assured that any complaints you make will be expeditiously handled, immediately going into the appropriate file for onward transportation to our highly-trained customer service reps." (Demonstrates by placing complaint form in 'round file', where it is picked up that night by a 'customer service rep' working nights for minimum wage and transported to the complaint processing center, aka the dumpster.

 

[TomT]

They basically told me "Too bad, so sad; go pound salt..."

I've thought that Nissan's statement that they would deal with owners who have battery problems on an individual basis needed translation

 

[spooka]

Indeed. I've thought that Nissan's statement that they would deal with owners who have battery problems on an individual basis needed translation:

"Nissan North America fully intends to stand behind its products and do right by their owners, but only when we're forced to. If you're not willing to waste a great deal of your time badgering us, especially by appearing in a TV news expose', we'll ignore you or, if that doesn't work, shine you on for as long as it amuses us. We value our short-term bottom line far more than our long-term reputation; we learned about more than quality circles from American car companies. Ignoring customer complaints over quality and performance issues has a long history in American car manufacturing, and you can't claim that shoddy practices have affected the corporate reputations, market shares or profitability of U.S. car companies vis-a-vis Japanese ones." (Aide hurriedly whispers into ear of Nissan North America Exec . . . Really? Starting in the 1960s? Huh, learn something new every day.) Clears throat . . .

"Anyway, rest assured that any complaints you make will be expeditiously handled, immediately going into the appropriate file for onward transition to our highly-trained customer service reps." (Demonstrates by placing complaint form in 'round file', where it is picked up that night by a 'customer service rep' working nights for minimum wage and transported to the complaint processing center, aka the dumpster.

With all of the frustrations, time, effort and money I have put into this effort so far, IMO, this is the post of the month! I really needed to read something like this.
Thanks GRA.

Part of my effort in dealing with returning our misfits to Nissan was to get sonicspeaks.com off the ground. Its purpose is to offer a non tech place that is concise and will get the points of affected owners out to the general public about this issue in a way that makes sense to non EV folk. I would like to offer space to owners that are trying to return their LEAF to Nissan for you to get your own story out there. I love MNL.com and what it does but in what is almost a 500 page and growing thread, things get lost fast and the public probably isn't going to have time to read through this continuing masterpiece that is being created daily. My goal with sonicspeaks is to personify a LEAF, make our issue understandable to the public in a straight forward and humorous way, post press releases for wilted owners and reunited these wilted LEAFs with their maker. (Thank you so much Randy for coining wilted LEAF!) I am not attempting to do what MNL already does and couldn't if I wanted to. If you are an owner attempting to return your LEAF to Nissan, and want your story to be heard, please PM your story/photos to me and I will get it online for you. To the moderator: I hope this post is OK. If not please remove it. I am just trying to find a way to respond to the rejection Nissan has been dealing out to owners lately. Thanks for reading this.

Paul

 

[GRA]

With all of the frustrations, time, effort and money I have put into this effort so far, IMO, this is the post of the month! I really needed to read something like this.
Thanks GRA.

Part of my effort in dealing with returning our misfits to Nissan was to get sonicspeaks.com off the ground. Its purpose is to offer a non tech place that is concise and will get the points of affected owners out to the general public about this issue in a way that makes sense to non EV folk. I would like to offer space to owners that are trying to return their LEAF to Nissan for you to get your own story out there. I love MNL.com and what it does but in what is almost a 500 page and growing thread, things get lost fast and the public probably isn't going to have time to read through this continuing masterpiece that is being created daily. My goal with sonicspeaks is to personify a LEAF, make our issue understandable to the public in a straight forward and humorous way, post press releases for wilted owners and reunited these wilted LEAFs with their maker. (Thank you so much Randy for coining wilted LEAF!) I am not attempting to do what MNL already does and couldn't if I wanted to. If you are an owner attempting to return your LEAF to Nissan, and want your story to be heard, please PM your story/photos to me and I will get it online for you. To the moderator: I hope this post is OK. If not please remove it. I am just trying to find a way to respond to the rejection Nissan has been dealing out to owners lately. Thanks for reading this.

Paul

I hope it gave you a bit of a laugh; beats punching holes in walls :evil: . Nissan's behavior infuriates me, and I'm not even affected by it. At this stage, though, I've concluded that as a corporation they've decided to hide behind their lawyers, and they've lost me as a possible future customer, very likely for the rest of my life, nor will I recommend them to others if asked. It's a pity, because Nissan has made some very good cars, and my favorite among the cars I've owned was my 2000 Roadster. But Nissan's corporate ethics as demonstrated with Leaf owners put them beyond the pale for me, and I intend to punish their behavior in my own small way. If they were still the only game in town for BEVs it might be a different story, but that's not the case.

 

[surfingslovak]

Cross-posting this comment from plugincars.com to see if it was left by a forum member. I could not find the corresponding entry in the Wiki.

Anonymous (not verified) · 4 weeks ago

Thanks for the information. I live in Houston and have lost 2 bars in15,000 miles over 13 months. After done my battery check, the technician told me the degrading was normal. He has services 4-5 Leafs in the past few months with one bar missing. I think this heat problem is affecting all southern states. AZ is just more severe. I believe all Nissan Leaf owns understand the degrading but not like this way. We "Trusted" Nissan's statement about 80% capacity retained at 5 years and 70% at 8-10 years. Even with one lost bar, the "Trust" has been broken. I don't think 'Our next battery will be better" can win any trust from people understand Nissan's current battery issue. I think Nissan should provide a better solution for current leaf. Trade-in, buy-back or battery exchange program with reasonable price will assure the existence of the "Trust" between Nissan and customers.

Click to open

 

[spooka]

this is the post of the month[/i]! I really needed to read something like this.
Thanks GRA.

Part of my effort in dealing with returning our misfits to Nissan was to get sonicspeaks.com off the ground. Its purpose is to offer a non tech place that is concise and will get the points of affected owners out to the general public about this issue in a way that makes sense to non EV folk. I would like to offer space to owners that are trying to return their LEAF to Nissan for you to get your own story out there. I love MNL.com and what it does but in what is almost a 500 page and growing thread, things get lost fast and the public probably isn't going to have time to read through this continuing masterpiece that is being created daily. My goal with sonicspeaks is to personify a LEAF, make our issue understandable to the public in a straight forward and humorous way, post press releases for wilted owners and reunited these wilted LEAFs with their maker. (Thank you so much Randy for coining wilted LEAF!) I am not attempting to do what MNL already does and couldn't if I wanted to. If you are an owner attempting to return your LEAF to Nissan, and want your story to be heard, please PM your story/photos to me and I will get it online for you. To the moderator: I hope this post is OK. If not please remove it. I am just trying to find a way to respond to the rejection Nissan has been dealing out to owners lately. Thanks for reading this.

Paul

I hope it gave you a bit of a laugh; beats punching holes in walls :evil: . Nissan's behavior infuriates me, and I'm not even affected by it. At this stage, though, I've concluded that as a corporation they've decided to hide behind their lawyers, and they've lost me as a possible future customer, very likely for the rest of my life, nor will I recommend them to others if asked. It's a pity, because Nissan has made some very good cars, and my favorite among the cars I've owned was my 2000 Roadster. But Nissan's corporate ethics as demonstrated with Leaf owners put them beyond the pale for me, and I intend to punish their behavior in my own small way. If they were still the only game in town for BEVs it might be a different story, but that's not the case.

I work with the public and have had the opportunity to speak with hundreds of people about how Nissan is handling this. The people that really know Nissan's company reputation are especially surprised and very disappointed with Nissan. They essentially all feel like you do about this without having any skin in the game. All I can do is continue to be as public about this as possible since all of us "Wilters" have been shrugged off at this point.

In my last shameless plug, I added a Facebook LIKE button to the sonicspeaks.com home page. Any and all LIKEs would be hugely appreciated. I'd love to see this go viral. Let your friends know what Nissan is doing and how they are not living up to customer commitments. A few seconds of your time could make a huge difference in the lives of all those affected by this since the financial impact on each owner is substantial. Thanks to all for your help. I just can't afford to buy a new battery pack while I'm still paying the original loan off on my car. Who could?

 

[electricfuture]

I have gone past the 18,000 mark and recently noticed that the top bar does not appear at start up - but re-appears after driving a short distance.

I am in a mild climate (San Diego), car is garage kept, charge to 100% daily from usually below 10% left, lot of highway driving, recent Nissan check up said everything was great and that the way I am charging will help maintain battery life.

I am thinking the battery is at the cusp of loosing the top bar but temperature changes are bringing it ""back to life".

I'll check with Nissan but expect nothing. My greater concern is that Nissan has not yet addressed battery pack replacement - which for some of us is in just another 4 years.

 

[evchels]

The host clearly takes exception to the claim that Chelsea is an "EV Expert..."

The Leaf segment on EVTV from October 5

Ha, though I wouldn't call myself one either! Then again, the only other time (afaik) I've been mentioned on his show he called me a whore, among other things...so this was quite an improvement!

 

[RegGuheert]

Then again, the only other time (afaik) I've been mentioned on his show he called me a whore, among other things...so this was quite an improvement!

That's completely unprofessional and out-of-bounds, IMO. While I'm glad you can laugh about it, I'm very sorry that you have to.

 

[surfingslovak]

Then again, the only other time (afaik) I've been mentioned on his show he called me a whore, among other things...so this was quite an improvement!

That's completely unprofessional and out-of-bounds, IMO. While I'm glad you can laugh about it, I'm very sorry that you have to.

Indeed! It looks like Jack is trying to be the Jeremy Clarkson of the EV world.

 

[JRP3]

That's a fair assessment. Best not to take anything Jack says too seriously. He does provide some good data, you just have to pick it out from the bad.

 

[spooka]

I did a range test today. Drove to LBW 13 months apart along the same course. I did duplicate as many details as I could but with what tested out today as a 25% range loss in 13 months, it really didn't matter if I was actually able to duplicate conditions 100%. As a note, it was a very LEAF friendly 75 degrees during most of my drive today. Made it 82 miles in 2011 and 61 miles today. Thanks Nisssan :evil:

General details here
http://sonicspeaks.com/sonicspeaks_005.htm

 

[Stoaty]

I did a range test today. Drove to LBW 13 months apart along the same course. I did duplicate as many details as I could but with what tested out today as a 25% range loss in 13 months, it really didn't matter if I was actually able to duplicate conditions 100%. As a note, it was a very LEAF friendly 75 degrees during most of my drive today. Made it 82 miles in 2011 and 61 miles today. Thanks Nisssan :evil:

General details here
http://sonicspeaks.com/sonicspeaks_005.htm

What were your miles/kwh from the dash for each test? How many days a week do you park your Leaf in the sun? How many hours a day does your Leaf typically spend at 100% charge?

 

[TomT]

I was able to drive my controlled route again today to test range. It was in the mid 60s today and the last time I did so at the same temp and with 100 percent charge and 12 capacity bars, I went 68 miles and arrived home right at LBW. No climate control, of course. Today I arrived home 3 miles in to VLBW... So, my loss of range is pretty consistent with my loss of capacity bars...

 

[Stoaty]

I was able to drive my controlled route again today to test range. It was in the mid 60s today and the last time I did so at the same temp and with 100 percent charge and 12 capacity bars, I went 68 miles and arrived home right at LBW. No climate control, of course. Today I arrived home 3 miles in to VLBW... So, my loss of range is pretty consistent with my loss of capacity bars...

Yes, but not consistent with loss of capacity. Based on your data, it sounds like you have lost about 12.1% of capacity (assuming the first test was when the Leaf was pretty new, you didn't say):

LBW is 17.4%
VLBW is 8.9%
at 4 miles/kwh 3 miles below VLBW would be an extra 0.75 kwh, which is 3.6% of the total 21 kwh available.

Thus your loss of capacity would be (17.4-8.9)+3.6 = 12.1%

Interestingly, my battery aging model predicts an 11.5% loss of capacity.

Note: I don't think it is fair to use loss of range to LBW, as Nissan never promised anything about that. The fair way to do a comparison is loss of capacity.

 

[turbo2ltr]

I have gone past the 18,000 mark and recently noticed that the top bar does not appear at start up - but re-appears after driving a short distance.

I am in a mild climate (San Diego), car is garage kept, charge to 100% daily from usually below 10% left, lot of highway driving, recent Nissan check up said everything was great and that the way I am charging will help maintain battery life.

I am thinking the battery is at the cusp of loosing the top bar but temperature changes are bringing it ""back to life".

I'll check with Nissan but expect nothing. My greater concern is that Nissan has not yet addressed battery pack replacement - which for some of us is in just another 4 years.

My guess is you are using the top SOC bar as a reference to measure the capacity bars, and the top capacity bar "reappears" when you lose the first SOC bar. I don't think there are any confirmed reports of getting a capacity bar back without connection to nissan's scan tool.

 

[turbo2ltr]

Just a point of reference.
GIDs at 100% charge

5/2012 (one bar lost): 228
6/30/2012 (two bars lost): 213
7/22/2012: 215
9/21/2012: 213
10/23/2012: 217

I would consider that a significant leveling off trend. Though these are spot checks. I don't keep records like TickTock.
It also appears I may have a bad cell.