Capacity Loss on 2011-2012 LEAFs

[TomT]

One other data point: I borrowed a Gid meter (remember, mine was stolen some time ago) and charged to 100 percent last night (at about 65 degrees and 5 battery temperature bars). This brought me to 218 Gids...

I'd driving the same route again today and will see what the results are.

I was able to drive my controlled route again today to test range. It was in the mid 60s today and the last time I did so at the same temp and with 100 percent charge and 12 capacity bars, I went 68 miles and arrived home right at LBW. No climate control, of course. Today I arrived home 3 miles in to VLBW... So, my loss of range is pretty consistent with my loss of capacity bars...

 

[Stoaty]

One other data point: I borrowed a Gid meter (remember, mine was stolen some time ago) and charged to 100 percent last night (at about 65 degrees and 5 battery temperature bars). This brought me to 218 Gids...

I'd driving the same route again today and will see what the results are.

What is your average miles per kwh from the dash? What was the miles per kwh on the range test? How many days a week do you park in the sun?

The Gid meter indicates 22.5% loss of capacity (unfortunately, not any more accurate than the capacity bars). If we know the miles/kwh for the range test and speed of range test we can compare to 84 miles at 4 miles per kwh for a new Leaf.

 

[edatoakrun]

="Stoaty"...The Gid meter indicates 22.5% loss of capacity (unfortunately, not any more accurate than the capacity bars). If we know the miles/kwh for the range test and speed of range test we can compare to 84 miles at 4 miles per kwh for a new Leaf..

No, you cannot.

The most useful data, IMO, coming from the Arizona range test of LEAFs driven in controlled m/kW use conditions. was the very large apparent inaccuracy shown by the dash reports, varying from 3.7 m/kWh to 4.4 m/kWh, or ~16%.

Unless verified by other means, such as a range test or monitored recharge, either or both under carefully controlled conditions, the capacity calculated from the dash and nav screen, and the Carwings kWh use reports, are about as useless as are the gid numbers and capacity bar losses, to an accurate determination of LEAF current available battery capacity.

TomT wrote:
One other data point: I borrowed a Gid meter (remember, mine was stolen some time ago) and charged to 100 percent last night (at about 65 degrees and 5 battery temperature bars). This brought me to 218 Gids...

I'd driving the same route again today and will see what the results are.

Please monitor your recharge, note the ambient temperature, and post it for comparison with your previous reports here:


https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0An7gtcYL2Oy0dG9vbzBiMW8tc1c2UzFKM3RiUG5ORHc#gid=0" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

so "some" evidence of a reduced rate of degradation cannot be taken too seriously as i suspect most of that is simply cooler weather. lets see how it goes in Feb

 

[LEAFfan]

I was able to drive my controlled route again today to test range. It was in the mid 60s today and the last time I did so at the same temp and with 100 percent charge and 12 capacity bars, I went 68 miles and arrived home right at LBW. No climate control, of course. Today I arrived home 3 miles in to VLBW... So, my loss of range is pretty consistent with my loss of capacity bars...

Yes, but not consistent with loss of capacity. Based on your data, it sounds like you have lost about 12.1% of capacity (assuming the first test was when the Leaf was pretty new, you didn't say):

LBW is 17.4%
VLBW is 8.9%
at 4 miles/kwh 3 miles below VLBW would be an extra 0.75 kwh, which is 3.6% of the total 21 kwh available.

Thus your loss of capacity would be (17.4-8.9)+3.6 = 12.1%

Interestingly, my battery aging model predicts an 11.5% loss of capacity.

Note: I don't think it is fair to use loss of range to LBW, as Nissan never promised anything about that. The fair way to do a comparison is loss of capacity.

VLBW actually occurs at 8.5% (at least with my meter).

 

[leafwing]

I do not know what it means, but here what happened last week when the temp. dropped to the 50-60'sh.
I charge the car at 3:00 am to 80%, so in the morning, I got 10 of 12 bars instead of the regular 9 of 12 after losing one capacity bar. The 10th bar lasted less than two miles, which is good.
Any one had similar observation?

 

[TomT]

Same route today, starting at 221 Gids, about the same temp, and pretty much the same driving conditions (plus or minus, of course)... I didn't do as well though; my Gid usage about mid-way through indicated I would not make it home... So, I slowed by about 7 mph for the last half of the trip and arrived home 5 miles in to VLBW... Dash m/Kwh for the trip was 4.4. This concludes our test of the emergency battery capacity system. This is only a test.

One other data point: I borrowed a Gid meter (remember, mine was stolen some time ago) and charged to 100 percent last night (at about 65 degrees and 5 battery temperature bars). This brought me to 218 Gids...

I'd driving the same route again today and will see what the results are.

I was able to drive my controlled route again today to test range. It was in the mid 60s today and the last time I did so at the same temp and with 100 percent charge and 12 capacity bars, I went 68 miles and arrived home right at LBW. No climate control, of course. Today I arrived home 3 miles in to VLBW... So, my loss of range is pretty consistent with my loss of capacity bars...

 

[smkettner]

I do not know what it means, but here what happened last week when the temp. dropped to the 50-60'sh.
I charge the car at 3:00 am to 80%, so in the morning, I got 10 of 12 bars instead of the regular 9 of 12 after losing one capacity bar. The 10th bar lasted less than two miles, which is good.
Any one had similar observation?

Yes

 

[spooka]

I did a range test today. Drove to LBW 13 months apart along the same course. I did duplicate as many details as I could but with what tested out today as a 25% range loss in 13 months, it really didn't matter if I was actually able to duplicate conditions 100%. As a note, it was a very LEAF friendly 75 degrees during most of my drive today. Made it 82 miles in 2011 and 61 miles today. Thanks Nisssan :evil:

General details here
http://sonicspeaks.com/sonicspeaks_005.htm

What were your miles/kwh from the dash for each test? How many days a week do you park your Leaf in the sun? How many hours a day does your Leaf typically spend at 100% charge?

m/kwh 5.8 and 5.6 - is the dash accurate for this? I had the software update between trips. My understanding is that m/kwh is about as good for info as the GOM. (Tony's Tempe Twelve test suggested that). I actually did this trip once and got 6.3m/kwh (which I didn't believe).
Days in the sun/week. 3
100% charge hr/d - maybe 2 hours when I 100% charge (3 Nissan reps have now told me it is OK to leave at 100% charge as long as you want) so I don't know what to believe about this anymore.


I also posted the video I made about the trip. Sorry about the audio quality (thanks to the gopro). Two things about this video will be immediately clear. 1 - I am not a broadcaster (no matter how much you beg and plead, I will not be quitting my day job, thank you very much) :roll: and 2 - I did not approach this topic from a technical standpoint (I wouldn't be qualified to). I just want the deniers out there to meet someone that has been impacted by Nissan's decision to sell a car in a place where it would die quickly. Maybe they will re-think their position and maybe some non-techies that are interested in this will learn something about what is going on with this degradation. If you are interested, look on the bottom right on the page in the link.
http://sonicspeaks.com

 

[JRP3]

100% charge hr/d - maybe 2 hours when I 100% charge (3 Nissan reps have now told me it is OK to leave at 100% charge as long as you want) so I don't know what to believe about this anymore.

Next time someone tells you that ask them "What about electrolyte solvent breakdown from sitting at sustained higher voltages?" If they give you a blank stare, well draw your own conclusions. Maybe Nissan has some breakthrough electrolyte that avoids this, if so they should be shouting it from the rooftops.

 

[KJD]

3 Nissan reps have now told me it is OK to leave at 100% charge as long as you want

These 3 reps are absolutely 100% WRONG. This is one of the worst things you can do to this battery pack.

 

[spooka]

3 Nissan reps have now told me it is OK to leave at 100% charge as long as you want

These 3 reps are absolutely 100% WRONG. This is one of the worst things you can do to this battery pack.

No worries, I can just get a new battery pack under warranty if i do this... according to the LEAF specialist at the dealership that services my LEAF. I get this chill up my leg just knowing Nissan will be there for me :roll:

 

[electricfuture]

I have gone past the 18,000 mark and recently noticed that the top bar does not appear at start up - but re-appears after driving a short distance.

I am in a mild climate (San Diego), car is garage kept, charge to 100% daily from usually below 10% left, lot of highway driving, recent Nissan check up said everything was great and that the way I am charging will help maintain battery life.

I am thinking the battery is at the cusp of loosing the top bar but temperature changes are bringing it ""back to life".

I'll check with Nissan but expect nothing. My greater concern is that Nissan has not yet addressed battery pack replacement - which for some of us is in just another 4 years.

My guess is you are using the top SOC bar as a reference to measure the capacity bars, and the top capacity bar "reappears" when you lose the first SOC bar. I don't think there are any confirmed reports of getting a capacity bar back without connection to nissan's scan tool.

Uh-ho, top capacity bar (white) is not on on a daily basis now at start up, but consistently comes back on after driving a short distance. Nissan agreed that I was probably at the cusp of losing some capacity but the Nissan tech. was not sure why it kept coming back. They asked me to bring it in for the same checkup I just had last month.

 

[turbo2ltr]

Next time it comes back, actually stop and count the capacity bars...I think you'll find there are still 11.

 

[EdmondLeaf]

Wonder if this will be lowest mileage and 11 BC bars, currently for sale at http://www.camelbackford.com/used/Nissan/2011-Nissan-LEAF-96c092180a0a006401c226ac10ba7a65.htm at reasonable price

 

[mwalsh]

Wonder if this will be lowest mileage and 11 BC bars, currently for sale at http://www.camelbackford.com/used/Nissan/2011-Nissan-LEAF-96c092180a0a006401c226ac10ba7a65.htm at reasonable price

"...no sordid history on this one-owner creampuff" :lol:

 

[DesertDenizen]

Wow, almost the same as mine, down to 11 bars at 6,881 miles.

 

[vrwl]

Wonder if this will be lowest mileage and 11 BC bars, currently for sale at http://www.camelbackford.com/used/Nissan/2011-Nissan-LEAF-96c092180a0a006401c226ac10ba7a65.htm at reasonable price

EdmondLeaf,
Can you give us the specifics about your bar loss so we can get your car added to the wiki?

Date of Loss
Months Owned at time of loss
Mfg Date
VIN number

Thanks, and so sorry to hear about your car. I know you took great pains over the summer to try to protect it and keep this from happening so soon.

 

[Stoaty]

EdmondLeaf,
Can you give us the specifics about your bar loss so we can get your car added to the wiki?

He never said the car was his... and since he lives in Oklahoma and the car is being sold in Phoenix...

 

[EdmondLeaf]

Viki,
This is not mine. It is AZ car for sale at Camelback Ford, Phoenix for 20K$. It is 2011 VIN JN1AZ0CP3BT004745.