Capacity Loss on 2011-2012 LEAFs

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Nissan reimbursed me one month's payments on my Leaf to compensate for the 5 weeks it took to replace the battery under warranty in spite of numerous efforts to improve the delivery.

It comes down to Nissan will build a battery replacement specifically for the vehicle after an order is received. They will not keep batteries "on the shelf" as they said they will deteriorate.

I told then I understand this but 3 1/2 weeks for shipping from Tennessee to California was unacceptable and completely in their control. The battery could have been "fast freight" in only 3 days and the replacement could have been made in weeks rather than a month. They said they will look into improving the delivery time.
 
electricfuture said:
The battery could have been "fast freight" in only 3 days and the replacement could have been made in weeks rather than a month.
The battery for the Nissan LEAF takes much longer than a couple of weeks to manufacture. While no one knows the exact amount of time, previous discussions about difficulty ramping up sales indicate that it takes months rather than weeks to build the LEAF battery.

But your point still stands. It sound like Nissan dealers are requesting batteries which must come from the current assembly line and that current LEAF production gets priority. So the question I have is this: Did Nissan hold your car hostage during this entire time? Is so, why?

I do agree that it is good to receive a fresh battery. At the same time it makes me wonder how robust this new chemistry must be.
 
electricfuture said:
...The battery could have been "fast freight" in only 3 days ...
Sure it could.
For $500 to $700 more.
I am more than willing to speak out against Nissan for what they do wrong.
But do you honestly expect them to "fast freight" capacity warranty battery replacements :?:
 
TimLee said:
electricfuture said:
...The battery could have been "fast freight" in only 3 days ...
Sure it could.
For $500 to $700 more.
I am more than willing to speak out against Nissan for what they do wrong.
But do you honestly expect them to "fast freight" capacity warranty battery replacements :?:

+1. The only reason that making an owner wait a little longer than expected would be less than OK would be a) if the dealer pulled a functional battery in advance of getting the replacement for some odd reason (though I can't imaging there being a valid one, and even then it's on the dealer not Nissan) or b) the pack was defective to the point that the vehicle was inoperable or maybe had such abysmal range that it wouldn't even be good for neigborhood driving.
 
You can ship anything across the country by truck in a week or less at regular rates, so I fail to see why it took three and a half. Rail can take a lot longer depending on the commodity, but even so . . .
 
You can ship anything across the country by truck in a week or less at regular rates, so I fail to see why it took three and a half. Rail can take a lot longer depending on the commodity, but even so . . .

Yes I agree you can. However, Nissan gave the battery to an independent trucker with no required delivery date so he probably was doing pick ups and deliveries along the 2000 mile route to earn more money. The batter arrived in an unmarked 18 wheeler according to the dealership. The worst part is that Nissan EV Support and the dealership have absolutely no method of tracking the delivery, so they have no clue as to when it would arrive.

The dealership in good faith set me up for an appointment the Monday before Christmas thinking it would be there by the preceding Friday - nope. EV support called me the day after the battery was installed to tell me it would be delivered later that week!

This combination of an independent trucker without tracking on as important an item as your traction battery is ridiculous.

The dealership told me that they are in the dark on all shipments - even transmission replacements. I don't expect them to change their production methods - but their delivery methods definitely need improvement apparently across the board at Nissan.

No they did not hold my car hostage at the dealership. I brought it in the day after the battery arrived and took it back the following day.

The Guess-o-meter took about two weeks to settle in and give me reasonable range estimates - currently 82 miles on an 80% charge. I am happy with the new battery.
 
Found another 3 bar loser on autotrader, can't edit the wiki from this PC.

Used 2011 Nissan Leaf
45,460 miles
Stock No. F1230528A
VIN JN1AZ0CP7BT005719

supposedly a local trade in from Middle TN. But with 3 bars lost I'd expect it saw more heat than TN can provide.
 
dhanson865 said:
Used 2011 Nissan Leaf
45,460 miles
Stock No. F1230528A
VIN JN1AZ0CP7BT005719

supposedly a local trade in from Middle TN. But with 3 bars lost I'd expect it saw more heat than TN can provide.
Three capacity bar loss is very possible in Middle TN on a 2011 at 45,460 miles.
 
TimLee said:
dhanson865 said:
Used 2011 Nissan Leaf
45,460 miles
Stock No. F1230528A
VIN JN1AZ0CP7BT005719

supposedly a local trade in from Middle TN. But with 3 bars lost I'd expect it saw more heat than TN can provide.

Three capacity bar loss is very possible in Middle TN on a 2011 at 45,460 miles.

according to the aging model Nashville would take 5.8 years or so to reach 3 bars lost assuming 12,500 miles per year.

Memphis, TN 1.16 6.5 88.9% 83.7% 78.9% 69.6% 44.1% 4.9 years
Nashville, TN 1.02 6.5 90.1% 85.6% 81.4% 73.5% 52.6% 5.8 years
Knoxville, TN 0.97 6.5 90.4% 86.1% 82.1% 74.6% 55.1% 6.2 years

I didn't find Chattanooga on the wiki but I compared Chattanooga to Memphis on a couple of climate/weather sites and Memphis was hotter so I'm ruling out Chattanooga as hot enough to do it as well.

I even used the spreadsheet and upped the mileage to 15,000 a year and it still doesn't expect 3 bars lost by this time. In reality this car was probably 3.5 years old at time of 3rd bar loss which is only 13,000 miles a year.

Wherever they had it it was warmer than the aging model accounts for in any city you want to name for TN. Though I'd admit if it were in Memphis it'd be close. So maybe if they bought it in middle TN but lived right on the border of Alabama somewhere southwest of Nashville and made trips into GA, AL, or MS on a regular basis it would make sense.

So ground me if you think the battery aging model is wrong. How many miles on your 2011 in Chattanooga and how many bars lost? Do you travel to hotter areas or do you keep it in TN?

I couldn't possibly get it to trigger the warranty if I brought it to Knoxville where the heat is considerably less of a factor.
 
In talking to my service adviser this morning, I learned that Tustin Nissan currently has 3 cars waiting on warranty replacement packs. All with an apparent long lead time. My guy also believes the packs are coming from Japan, which doesn't make any sense to us, I know, but there certainly wasn't any incentive for him to mislead me. He also told me that they are all "Lizard" packs now (as we knew already) and that they're having no problems whatsoever getting the retrofit kits.
 
dhanson865 said:
...
So ground me if you think the battery aging model is wrong. How many miles on your 2011 in Chattanooga and how many bars lost? Do you travel to hotter areas or do you keep it in TN?
...
I am close to 24,000 miles and lost second capacity bar just a few days ago.

I think the battery capacity loss model is very good.

But there are variables it does not account for.
Garage temperature. Mine is uninsulated and in hot weather could be 15F to 20F above ambient if I had not started leaving garage door open eight inches when ambient is above 50F.
100% charging. I have only started doing that shortly before trips about nine months back.
Some people rotinely do it. Service manager at my dealer had lost two bars about nine months back at around 30,000 miles (Commutes from Cleveland to downtown Chattanooga).
DCQC: I have done a lot.

Capacity loss can be greatly affected by usage and real temperature, not the outdoor climate average.

If my Chattanooga non miles usage is high enough 2011 LEAF could qualify for capacity warranty.
Odds are not real good, but it is possible.
 
I can't embed more than 3 quotes, so I'm combining all my previous post's with my new one:

I lost my first bar. I expected some degradation in capacity, so my driving habits have not been impacted. I did report this issue to the Nissan dealer and was told this is expected.

Not sure how to add this to the spreadsheet:

Car Details:

Silver Nissan Leaf 2011
Date car purchased: 5/31/2011
Date bar disappeared: 8/24/2012
Mile's when bar disappeared: 21,085

Environment:

- San Diego Coastal and Inland climate (60's - 90's).

Car Charging info:

- 1 month of 100% charging via L2, thereafter 80% L2.
- (5/31 - 2/1) Nightly charge, except weekends where it typically charged just once for the entire weekend.
- (2/2 - Present) Charge twice a day 80% L2. Night and when I arrive to work.
- Garaged at home and uncovered at work.

MISC Info:

- Turtled once, but made it to an outlet.
- Mostly highway driving 55mph - 65mph.
- 4.5 KWH
- Manufactured Date: 4/11[/quote]

Lost my second bar: 7/8/2013.
Mileage: 36,360
Still performing a L2 charge twice a day 80% L2. Night and when I arrive to work.[/quote]

Lost my third bar: 6/13/2014.
Mileage: 52,109
Performing a L2 charge twice a day to %100. Once in at 1:10am and at work.

I didn't expect to lose this third bar until 60,000+, so I'm convinced it has more to do with heat causing the battery to degrade. The more often you charge to %100 the hotter the battery. Luckily, my commute is only 60 miles total, but I don't appreciate the stress of whether I'm going to make it or choosing between running the A/C.

I have my battery test coming up this weekend. I'll try to remember to post the results.[/quote]

The test cost was almost $100 and provided meaningless information. My test results were 5 stars for everything again. According to Nissan Escondido, my battery is degrading as expected. I disagree with their assessment and conclusion. The battery should not have degraded as quickly and severely as it has, especially in the climate and conditions I wrote about above.

In my opinion, as an early adopter, a recall should be made by Nissan for all 2011 Leaf batteries based on accelerated battery capacity loss I am experiencing and what others have reported.[/quote]

Lost my Fourth bar around: 1/6/2015.
Approximate Mileage was around: 61,150
Performed an L2 charge twice a day to 100%. Once in at 1:10am and at work.

Temperature is not at all high here in San Diego (I'm west of the 15 highway), so the ambient temperature only plays part of the problem. In my opinion: The Nissan Leaf 2011 model has a battery defect. Specifically, it does not tolerate heat from more than one L2 charge a day OR extreme outside temperatures.

I took my car to the dealership, shortly after I noticed the 4th bar was gone. The dealership refuses to accept any responsibility and Nissan Corporate refuses to honor the warranty, since I brought the car into the dealership after 60,000 miles. According to the Warranty Manual the next step is Arbitration, then possibly Small Claims Court.

I drive approximately 65 - 80 miles a day, but require at least two L2 charges to do so. Without my work L2 charger, I would be stranded. I no longer have the range to make it to my son or daughter's extracurricular activities for school or sports, or if there is an emergency at home then I can't get there until I complete a charge at work. I now get around 45 - 50 miles, during a combination of highway and service street driving, off a single L2 charge.

Based on all the literature and educational information that Nissan provided at event's that I attended and their website information, I expected at worst case to be at 65 miles on the eighth year of ownership. This is a HUGE disappointment to me, like so many other's, who were misled into thinking that this car's range would last 8 - 10 year's.
 
Leafer77 said:
I took my car to the dealership, shortly after I noticed the 4th bar was gone. The dealership refuses to accept any responsibility and Nissan Corporate refuses to honor the warranty, since I brought the car into the dealership after 60,000 miles. According to the Warranty Manual the next step is Arbitration, then possibly Small Claims Court.
Please keep us updated on what you decide to do, and your progress. I'm one of probably many others here who are in your shoes, or about to be. I'm down 3 bars at 3.5 years and 57.5k miles. I've already had to swap vehicles with my wife due to the length of my commute and the battery degradation. Due to the cool weather, I don't expect the 4th bar to drop until May at the earliest. I'm not sure if we'll squeak in under the 60k mileage limit or not.

You're exactly correct: Nissan is really dropping the ball on their biggest supporters here - their early adopters. Ideally, they should recall the packs and supply lizard batteries to all that are impacted. But at the very least they should provide a pro-rated warranty corresponding to their original (2010-2011) capacity claims.

I've already heard from some vocal LEAF owners they won't buy another Nissan based on this experience, which is sad, as the LEAF is otherwise an excellent vehicle. Alas, I may have to count myself among those folks very soon. :cry:
 
Valdemar said:
ahagge said:
I've already heard from some vocal LEAF owners they won't buy another Nissan based on this experience

Count me in...

I think I would. Don't get me wrong, I think Nissan is a horribly managed company, and I don't think they really care about anything other than selling new cars, but the LEAF has been a very good vehicle overall (except for the massive elephant lurking underneath it).
 
ahagge said:
...
I've already heard from some vocal LEAF owners they won't buy another Nissan based on this experience, which is sad, as the LEAF is otherwise an excellent vehicle. ...
Nissan has done quite a few irritating things.
Their handling of LEAF battery capacity degradation has been horrible for their brand and they seem to fail to recognize this.
I was already irritated that I could not get an Altima hybrid in TN or GA in 2010.

But all car companies have issues.
If they will make an Altima plug in electric range extension vehicle with 20 mile or more electric range I will consider it.
My wife wants to trade in for new one now, unfortunately they do not sell anything worth doing it for yet.
But the irritation with Nissan will cause me to consider the new VW first.

Similarly if the gen2 LEAF has >150 mile real range, I will consider it.
But the irritation with Nissan will cause me to carefully look at what everyone else is offering first.
 
mwalsh said:
Valdemar said:
ahagge said:
I've already heard from some vocal LEAF owners they won't buy another Nissan based on this experience

Count me in...

I think I would. Don't get me wrong, I think Nissan is a horribly managed company, and I don't think they really care about anything other than selling new cars, but the LEAF has been a very good vehicle overall (except for the massive elephant lurking underneath it).

While overall the Leaf is okay, it is their unwillingness to stand behind their product that turns me off.
 
Lost my first bar 13 months ago (12/4/13). Today 1/28/15 I picks up my Leaf from the airport hanger. It had been in the hanger for 2 and half weeks, on a 220v EVSE. Backing it out of the hanger I noticed the second bar was gone. The weather here in Southern California has been cool, in the 60 and 70's, nothing too hot or cold.

I know my Leaf is 3 and half years old but it ONLY has 16,620 miles on it. That is not a lot of miles for a car that is 3 and half years old.

And it is down 2 bars???
 
Sounds about right for SoCal where calendar losses are more than from cycling the pack, enter your data into the degradation model spreadsheet to see if it predicts about 21% loss after 3.5 years. I'm doing slightly worse than the model, likely due to the relatively high number of QC. Will probably lose my 3rd bar at the 3.5 years mark.
 
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