Capacity Loss on 2011-2012 LEAFs

[Zythryn]

I'm amazed at how many people would consider a Tesla after the way they treated their Roadster customers. Not only with respect to the bricked cars, which is what the video is talking about, but also how they raised the price at delivery after their customers had put down a sizable deposit and then waited for their car for at least a year.

You might be less amazed if you knew more about those events.
The bricking happened to a very tiny fraction of people (3 as I recall). All three ignored the instructions, verbal and in the manual, to plug in the car when not in use. On top of that, they left the cars drained and unplugged for weeks or months. Tesla is making improvements so this is much more difficult to do. But you know what happens when you build something to be more idiot proof, someone builds a better idiot
To my knowledge, the deposits on the roadsters was 100% refundable. Changes to pricing and specs from a new start up company is not surprising to most people. I am rather surprised the Model S pricing didn't change (happily so).

I am surprised personally that an established auto company, with all their production muscle, hasn't beaten Tesla to the punch and built a longer range EV.

 

[JRP3]

I am surprised personally that an established auto company, with all their production muscle, hasn't beaten Tesla to the punch and built a longer range EV.

I'm not, the OEM's have a huge investment in ICE technology, Tesla is showing how much better an EV can be with the Model S.

Also, to avoid confusion the broken quotes in your post attributes SanDust's comments to me.

 

[aqn]

How can I get my name on the first page of this thread? I just lost my first bar on Tuesday, July 24th at 14,100. I've had it 16 months. Live in Phoenix, Arizona. At this rate I'll only be down 3 bars by the time the lease is up but it's worrisome.

Bummer, man.

Your information has been added to the forum Wiki.

Be sure to post and let us know when you've reported the issue to Nissan and received a Case number from them so we can update the wiki with that additional info.

Or, AZMerf, if you feel even 1/10th as energetic as Vicki/vrwl and Stoaty , you can sign into the wiki yourself (use the same credentials as for this forum) and do the update yourself. Editing is easy; MediaWiki mark-up language is quite simple.

 

[Boomer23]

all over a problem that effects a hundred cars.

The problem affects every car. It's just not apparent until baked for a few months to a year.

I think that "the problem" is being painted here with too broad a brush. The problem is that the LEAF's batteries are susceptible to premature capacity loss in very hot climates. In addition, some of us, me included, are seeing some range loss after about a year of use in more temperate regions. Most of us accept the fact that Li batteries lose some capacity over time and that the curve is steeper early in the battery's life. Most would agree that it's unrealistic to expect no capacity loss over three to five years, but we may be seeing the majority of that loss within the first twelve to fifteen months. Is that part of "the problem" or is that a predictable "normal" (leaving aside for the moment the expectations Nissan established before we ordered and their slow and blinkered response recently)?

I submit that we have a problem with the LEAF's pack in very hot climates, and we're seeing predictable range loss in other regions. The degree to which the latter is a problem relates directly to each owner's range needs and whether they are concerned about resale value loss, which may well IMHO be somewhat self-induced due to our own lumping of the predictable range loss in with the heat related problem.

 

[KJD]

I submit that we have a problem with the LEAF's pack in very hot climates, and we're seeing predictable range loss in other regions. The degree to which the latter is a problem relates directly to each owner's range needs and whether they are concerned about resale value loss, which may well IMHO be somewhat self-induced due to our own lumping of the predictable range loss in with the heat related problem.

I would agree with most of what you are saying here. Nissan has said 20% loss in 5 years and 30% loss in 10 years. If my car makes these numbers I will be happy as hell. It may or may not work out that way. Mine is a 2012 so it is less than a year old now.

After 5 or 10 years time there should be a lot more choices on the EV market and I will look at each of these before picking the next car after the LEAF. A big part of my decision will be how Nissan handles the problem with the AZ cars this year.

Looking at your GID numbers it appears that you are down about 10% in less than 2 years. Do you feel like you will only be down 20% in 5 years?

 

[Boomer23]

I submit that we have a problem with the LEAF's pack in very hot climates, and we're seeing predictable range loss in other regions. The degree to which the latter is a problem relates directly to each owner's range needs and whether they are concerned about resale value loss, which may well IMHO be somewhat self-induced due to our own lumping of the predictable range loss in with the heat related problem.

I would agree with most of what you are saying here. Nissan has said 20% loss in 5 years and 30% loss in 10 years. If my car makes these numbers I will be happy as hell. It may or may not work out that way. Mine is a 2012 so it is less than a year old now.

After 5 or 10 years time there should be a lot more choices on the EV market and I will look at each of these before picking the next car after the LEAF. A big part of my decision will be how Nissan handles the problem with the AZ cars this year.

Looking at your GID numbers it appears that you are down about 10% in less than 2 years. Do you feel like you will only be down 20% in 5 years?

I don't know and I feel like none of us knows. It may well turn out that way. We're pioneers and our experiences will inform Nissan and other mfrs. For now, I'm content not to despair about the issue.

 

[TonyWilliams]

I submit that we have a problem with the LEAF's pack in very hot climates, and we're seeing predictable range loss in other regions. The degree to which the latter is a problem relates directly to each owner's range needs and whether they are concerned about resale value loss, which may well IMHO be somewhat self-induced due to our own lumping of the predictable range loss in with the heat related problem.

I'm certainly not lumping, as I have plainly said my former LEAF's 15-18% loss in 15 months had nothing to do with temperature, and specified that the car has never been exposed to any "high" temperatures of any kind, ever. I also submit that I don't think that is the norm, or that my car was going to "level off", as is seemingly popular to say. It actually appeared to be in a free fall from even a month ago.

I'm happy to not own it anymore, and let somebody else worry about guessing the future.

 

[JPWhite]

For now, I'm content not to despair about the issue.

For those of us outside the hot zone I'd agree we should not despair, at least not yet.

Even without despair I have to feel like the EV grin isn't quite what it used to be. It is a shame an issue in a few states can result in less satisfaction elsewhere for fear that the problem will spread.

I've decided that if I can get a half decent trade in allowance or Carmax offer, I will let Mr Obama pay for the majority of my 1st year depreciation and add a few thousand to get a 2013 when it becomes available. I'll get more utility out of it in the winter months and kick the battery problem down the road for another year.

Come to think of it, Nissan could offer early adopters favorable trade-in deals, thereby getting suspect cars off the road, and 'boost' their new LEAF sales figures all in one fell swoop

 

[palmermd]

Come to think of it, Nissan could offer early adopters favorable trade-in deals, thereby getting suspect cars off the road, and 'boost' their new LEAF sales figures all in one fell swoop

Already been suggested in the "how should Nissan respond..." thread. I think we will see some sort of program like this once we know more details about the 2013 model. I think Nissan is somewhat delaying the response because they cant release details about the upcoming product just yet. So far central valley heat has not "hit" any of the Leafs except one possible exception down near Bakersfield.

 

[Weatherman]

Come to think of it, Nissan could offer early adopters favorable trade-in deals, thereby getting suspect cars off the road, and 'boost' their new LEAF sales figures all in one fell swoop

Good luck, there.

More likely, you'll get a dealer who will low-ball you on your selling price, then auction the car off to some other dealer who will try to sell it to some unsuspecting buyer at $2,000 above a new-car price.

 

[Zythryn]

...
Also, to avoid confusion the broken quotes in your post attributes SanDust's comments to me.

thanks,sorry about that.

 

[keydiver]

I am rather surprised the Model S pricing didn't change (happily so).

Yes, but a LOT of features of the S suddenly became pricey "options". :roll: That, along with the long delay until manufacturing, and the non-access to their quick charging network, ruined my hopes of getting the $57,000 base model.

 

[JPWhite]

Come to think of it, Nissan could offer early adopters favorable trade-in deals, thereby getting suspect cars off the road, and 'boost' their new LEAF sales figures all in one fell swoop

Already been suggested in the "how should Nissan respond..." thread. I think we will see some sort of program like this once we know more details about the 2013 model. I think Nissan is somewhat delaying the response because they cant release details about the upcoming product just yet. So far central valley heat has not "hit" any of the Leafs except one possible exception down near Bakersfield.

Great minds think alike :lol:

Sorry to duplicate, difficult to keep up with all the posts these days.

 

[cwerdna]

Is the running simple copy/paste list that we had going on here now orphaned in favor of the Wiki?

I kinda liked both. The copy/paste list was simple. The wiki's list is the place to go for more info.

 

[Stoaty]

Is the running simple copy/paste list that we had going on here now orphaned in favor of the Wiki?

I kinda liked both. The copy/paste list was simple. The wiki's list is the place to go for more info.

We are pretty much sticking with the Wiki--avoids even more posts in a thread that is 200 posts long. It is easy to get to the latest up to date list that way.

 

[SanDust]

I'm certainly not lumping, as I have plainly said my former LEAF's 15-18% loss in 15 months had nothing to do with temperature, and specified that the car has never been exposed to any "high" temperatures of any kind, ever. I also submit that I don't think that is the norm, or that my car was going to "level off", as is seemingly popular to say. It actually appeared to be in a free fall from even a month ago.

I'm happy to not own it anymore, and let somebody else worry about guessing the future.

I'm assuming you're wrong and that your consistently taking the car to LBW, VLBW, and turtle played a significant role in your lost capacity. If that's wrong, and if everyone can expect a 20% capacity drop every two years, then I'd agree that we might as well put a fork in the Leaf.

Even if I'm right your point about not having a crystal ball is valid. Even if the battery will be fine I don't think potential customers would know that. On the other hand, Nissan could make it work regardless of which one of us is right by extending a real capacity warranty consistent with its representations. The worst case wouldn't be that bad. It hasn't sold that many Leafs and the next generation battery would certainly be more robust.

 

[SanDust]

The bricking happened to a very tiny fraction of people (3 as I recall). All three ignored the instructions, verbal and in the manual, to plug in the car when not in use. On top of that, they left the cars drained and unplugged for weeks or months. Tesla is making improvements so this is much more difficult to do. But you know what happens when you build something to be more idiot proof, someone builds a better idiot
To my knowledge, the deposits on the roadsters was 100% refundable. Changes to pricing and specs from a new start up company is not surprising to most people. I am rather surprised the Model S pricing didn't change (happily so).

I know it was four people. That was exactly my point. Tesla could have looked like a hero by fixing FOUR CARS. If it wouldn't do that, what will happen if they screw up and FOUR THOUSAND cars are affected?

If you like buying expensive products from a startup that treats their customers like mushrooms, by all means go ahead and enjoy yourself. But 99% of the buying public isn't going to share your enthusiasm for being treated badly. The Model S is going to have its share of issues, and not many will be interested in putting themselves in the position of buying from a company which won't stand behind its product. (Basically what you're saying is that Tesla is the soup Nazi for the automobile world.)

 

[Stoaty]

I'm assuming you're wrong and that your consistently taking the car to LBW, VLBW, and turtle played a significant role in your lost capacity. If that's wrong, and if everyone can expect a 20% capacity drop every two years, then I'd agree that we might as well put a fork in the Leaf.

I live in a very mild climate, but take my Leaf out to the hot San Fernando Valley 4 days a week (including summer). At one year I had 94.7% capacity remaining (as measured by Gids). The key differences between how my car was used and how Tony's was used:

--I never took my car below about 20% remaining Gids, ususally not below 30%
--I am very gentle with acceleration and drive relatively slowly
--I had 10,000 miles compared to Tony's 25,000
--I have never done QC (have the SV model)

Since there is virtually no correlation between mileage and loss of one bar, I think it is reasonably safe to say the mileage isn't the dominant factor. QC seems unlikely, since Tony hasn't done a lot of it. That leaves never deeply discharging the battery (my best guess), or possibly gentle acceleration (a distant second) as the most likely reasons for the difference in remaining capacity.

 

[JPWhite]

I live in a very mild climate, but take my Leaf out to the hot San Fernando Valley 4 days a week (including summer).

I see San Fernando is 7 degrees warmer on average than where I am, but I live there 7 days a week. Our summer time lows are higher so the battery doesn't get much respite for 3 months of the year

I'm hopeful my loss is no worse than yours. Our driving habits sound similar. I've slowed up considerably since driving an EV.

 

[Stoaty]

I see San Fernando is 7 degrees warmer on average than where I am, but I live there 7 days a week. Our summer time lows are higher so the battery doesn't get much respite for 3 months of the year

I'm hopeful my loss is no worse than yours. Our driving habits sound similar. I've slowed up considerably since driving an EV.

Can you borrow a Gid Meter from anyone in your area to get a one year reading on 100% charge? That would be interesting to compar.