Brodergate: "low-grade ethics violation"

[Nubo]

He was bummed to be driving the slowest car on the road...

At this point I became concerned about the range and distance remaining so I slowed down to ~71mph and put the car on cruise control

 

[GaslessInSeattle]

also as a side not, reading the san diego to Las Vegas article, it would be very interesting to do a trip in an ICE based on projected vs rated range and set out with a specific gas station in mind without having the exact directions, I don't think most gas drivers have any idea how much a difference driving say 67 mph vs 73 mph. Most people don't even pay attention to how many miles they get out of a tank of gas, when they do, they see a dramatic variation due to elevation, wind, road conditions and ambient temps, maybe not quite as extreme as an EV, but still dramatic and potentially anxiety producing if their options for filling up were limited. As Tesla has planned, more Super Chargers closer together is going to allow people to drive the S the way gas drivers are accustom, just pull over at the next station when you need it. The sooner the projected/rated miles thing goes away and the "gas gauge" returns with 1/8th marking the better. Also, why Tesla doesn't offer a %SOC on the S I don't know, I'd much rather come up with a way of predicting my usage based on experience in my area on my own, more like the way I do with the Leaf. A CHAdeMO adapter will really open things up here in the NW where we have DC QC's every 25 to 40 miles along the interstate from Canada to CA, then again, being able to pull over almost anywhere and use one of the adapters that did come with the car creates many more options than with the Leaf. Plug Share in our area is an inspiration to look at, choices abound.

I do concede that we are still at the beginning of infrastructure development and that Tesla's choice of proprietary charging plugs adds to the challenges in the early days.

 

[GaslessInSeattle]

oh, and lets now forget the elevation gain and the hills... on the way back down he is surprised to find that he only uses half a tank of gas, um, he would have seen quite a difference going up vs going down in a gas car. high speeds and elevation are range killers in any kind of car.

He was bummed to be driving the slowest car on the road...

At this point I became concerned about the range and distance remaining so I slowed down to ~71mph and put the car on cruise control

 

[GaslessInSeattle]

OK, this guy did not conduct a range test, he admits to not even starting with a full charge! He doesn't mention what the start SOC was, and his home charging was L1/110v, you'd have to charge 24 hours a day for several days to charge up the S from empty at L1 rates! then while in Vegas, he doesn't even know how long the valet charged the car on L2. This guy was poorly prepared for a long trip in a cutting edge technology with a charging network in it's infancy. when I go long distances I at least plan and charge accordingly with turn by turn directions to charging stations, etc.

"I put the car in Max Range mode the night before and left it there for the entire trip. the fact that I was still charging w/110v at home accounts for the late start Saturday as I wanted to leave with as close to max charge as I could get and 110v was only giving me 2mph in rated range."

 

[SanDust]

That trip was in an 85 S rather than the 85 P which Broder drove. IIRC, the 85 P has the hand-wound motor which gives higher power levels. Is the efficiency also very different?

The range ratings are the same. You could drive more aggressively of course.

I'm sorry, but any EV which *wastes* 6 kWh/day to do absolutely nothing is not employing a "pretty smart system". Wasting that much energy each day makes no sense whatsoever no matter how you look at it

+1 A lot of EV drivers wouldn't use that many kWh doing their daily driving. Something is obviously messed up. If you're spending this many $$$ on a Model S the money will not be an issue, but you have to wonder why bother with something this inefficient.

I don't think most gas drivers have any idea how much a difference driving say 67 mph vs 73 mph. Most people don't even pay attention to how many miles they get out of a tank of gas, when they do, they see a dramatic variation due to elevation, wind, road conditions and ambient temps, maybe not quite as extreme as an EV, but still dramatic and potentially anxiety producing if their options for filling up were limited. As Tesla has planned, more Super Chargers closer together is going to allow people to drive the S the way gas drivers are accustom, just pull over at the next station when you need it.

When you're driving a gas vehicle you don't pay any attention to how speed impacts MPG because for the most part it doesn't matter. That's why by comparison the Model S looks so lame.

More superchargers would help with range anxiety but they wouldn't allow you to go faster. The problem is the speed of charging. The faster you go the more often you'd have to stop and charge. Given how slow even DC charging is, going slower and getting more miles/kWh would get you from A to B a lot faster than zipping along and stopping more frequently. It's not a lack of charging stations which is the problem. It's the time it takes to charge.

 

[SanDust]

OK, this guy did not conduct a range test, he admits to not even starting with a full charge! He doesn't mention what the start SOC was, and his home charging was L1/110v, you'd have to charge 24 hours a day for several days to charge up the S from empty at L1 rates! then while in Vegas, he doesn't even know how long the valet charged the car on L2. This guy was poorly prepared for a long trip in a cutting edge technology with a charging network in it's infancy. when I go long distances I at least plan and charge accordingly with turn by turn directions to charging stations, etc.

I get it. It's ALWAYS the driver, never the car. The car is perfect.

 

[smkettner]

Both Broder and brookbot need to book a hotel that has L2 available or a supercharger within 5 miles.
Until there is more infrastructure, the EV driver will need to make some minimal efforts.

May as well blog about the motel had no wifi upon arrival :roll:

 

[Nubo]

OK, this guy did not conduct a range test, he admits to not even starting with a full charge! He doesn't mention what the start SOC was, and his home charging was L1/110v, you'd have to charge 24 hours a day for several days to charge up the S from empty at L1 rates! then while in Vegas, he doesn't even know how long the valet charged the car on L2. This guy was poorly prepared for a long trip in a cutting edge technology with a charging network in it's infancy. when I go long distances I at least plan and charge accordingly with turn by turn directions to charging stations, etc.

I get it. It's ALWAYS the driver, never the car. The car is perfect.

The car isn't perfect, neither is it a "terrible choice". The waste of energy at rest is an issue that was raised early on with the Roadster by Martin Eberhard (one of the original Tesla founders). Apparently Tesla still hasn't learned that lesson, which is unfortunate especially for a company that is ostensibly in business to make a positive difference in our energy future. Hopefully they will get their act together on this. Don't make me pull a fuse on a $100K car. Where is the frigging selector?

That being said, it is very much about the driver. The car is a tool. Like any other tool or any other car, the user who understands the tool and is willing to work with it instead of against it will get superior results.

People want to get hung up on Tesla's "Zero Compromise" campaign. This was another mistake by Tesla though anyone who was really was expecting ZERO compromise is either being coy or naive since any vehicle presents a multitude of compromises.

The car is what it is. The infrastructure is just beginning. The advancement of the technology is just beginning. If you don't think the car appeals to you, don't buy one. But don't discount the thousands who are finding it quite enjoyable and appropriate to their circumstances, even at this early stage.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

OK, this guy did not conduct a range test, he admits to not even starting with a full charge! He doesn't mention what the start SOC was, and his home charging was L1/110v, you'd have to charge 24 hours a day for several days to charge up the S from empty at L1 rates! then while in Vegas, he doesn't even know how long the valet charged the car on L2. This guy was poorly prepared for a long trip in a cutting edge technology with a charging network in it's infancy. when I go long distances I at least plan and charge accordingly with turn by turn directions to charging stations, etc.

I get it. It's ALWAYS the driver, never the car. The car is perfect.

perfect might not be the best word but when the same car works "much" better for other people in nearly identical situations, what is left to blame?

 

[GaslessInSeattle]

no it's just a rather bad example of the point you guys are trying to make, that's all.

OK, this guy did not conduct a range test, he admits to not even starting with a full charge! He doesn't mention what the start SOC was, and his home charging was L1/110v, you'd have to charge 24 hours a day for several days to charge up the S from empty at L1 rates! then while in Vegas, he doesn't even know how long the valet charged the car on L2. This guy was poorly prepared for a long trip in a cutting edge technology with a charging network in it's infancy. when I go long distances I at least plan and charge accordingly with turn by turn directions to charging stations, etc.

I get it. It's ALWAYS the driver, never the car. The car is perfect.

 

[GaslessInSeattle]

The car isn't perfect, neither is it a "terrible choice". The waste of energy at rest is an issue that was raised early on with the Roadster by Martin Eberhard (one of the original Tesla founders). Apparently Tesla still hasn't learned that lesson, which is unfortunate especially for a company that is ostensibly in business to make a positive difference in our energy future. Hopefully they will get their act together on this. Don't make me pull a fuse on a $100K car. Where is the frigging selector?

That being said, it is very much about the driver. The car is a tool. Like any other tool or any other car, the user who understands the tool and is willing to work with it instead of against it will get superior results.

People want to get hung up on Tesla's "Zero Compromise" campaign. This was another mistake by Tesla though anyone who was really was expecting ZERO compromise is either being coy or naive since any vehicle presents a multitude of compromises.

The car is what it is. The infrastructure is just beginning. The advancement of the technology is just beginning. If you don't think the car appeals to you, don't buy one. But don't discount the thousands who are finding it quite enjoyable and appropriate to their circumstances, even at this early stage.

+1, nice conclusion, thank you for the reasoned response.

 

[SanDust]

If you don't think the car appeals to you, don't buy one.

That's a long way from "if the car doesn't appeal to you then you're being paid off by big oil" or some similar conspiracy theory, which has been the view expressed by some on this thread.

The problem with "the car is just a tool" justification is that, while it sounds fine, when your $100K vehicle proves sadly lacking when compared to any number of $20K vehicles then "your tool" has certain "marketing challenges". There is no circumstance under which you, fully understanding a Model S, can outperform a driver in the seat of any $20K ICE vehicle on a long distance drive. They will always win. You will always lose. It's not about understanding your tool. It's about having a tool which isn't suited for what you're trying to do. IOW any cheap hammer will outperform a screwdriver if you're driving nails.

As you point out, the problem has been created by Tesla and its "Zero Compromise" campaign. If you sell the Model S as a "no compromise" performance car and the reality your customers face is putting along in the slow lane to conserve range, pulling fuses to avoid significant loss of range due to parasitic losses, wasting time finding chargers, having to spend significant time waiting for charges, having to deal with buggy tire pressure sensors, and staying in trailer parks in order to fully charge the car, then the marketing promise isn't being realized on the ground. Not good. You mention that thousands of people have signed up for a Model S. Well, Yugo sold 35,00 - 50,000 cars a year ... for a few years before the yawning chasm which separated the marketing claims and the customer experience destroyed it.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

before we can say "sadly lacking"

we need to determine a list of requirements for a vehicle.

I doubt anyone would consider the S to be lacking in any required area

 

[Nubo]

The problem with "the car is just a tool" justification is that, while it sounds fine, when your $100K vehicle proves sadly lacking when compared to any number of $20K vehicles then "your tool" has certain "marketing challenges". There is no circumstance under which you, fully understanding a Model S, can outperform a driver in the seat of any $20K ICE vehicle on a long distance drive. They will always win. You will always lose. It's not about understanding your tool. It's about having a tool which isn't suited for what you're trying to do. IOW any cheap hammer will outperform a screwdriver if you're driving nails.

It all depends on the use case. If you only exceed the range of a single charge a few times per year, then are you really worried about "out-performing" other cars when you make your occasional trip? That's a personal choice. But is it really so terrible to drive the speed limit once in awhile? If you buy an expensive car so that you can always "win" by being the fastest car on the road at all times, then yes. But my experience with the LEAF has shown me it's not really a problem. On normal days I zip around as I please because I'm well within my range.

And so we can continue with the analogy. If you spend 99% of your time driving screws and 1% driving nails, you'll find the screwdriver to be a more effective tool.

 

[thankyouOB]

The problem with "the car is just a tool" justification is that, while it sounds fine, when your $100K vehicle proves sadly lacking when compared to any number of $20K vehicles then "your tool" has certain "marketing challenges". There is no circumstance under which you, fully understanding a Model S, can outperform a driver in the seat of any $20K ICE vehicle on a long distance drive. ...

It all depends on the use case. If you only exceed the range of a single charge a few times per year, then are you really worried about "out-performing" other cars when you make your occasional trip? That's a personal choice. But is it really so terrible to drive the speed limit once in awhile? If you buy an expensive car so that you can always "win" by being the fastest car on the road at all times, then yes. But my experience with the LEAF has shown me it's not really a problem. On normal days I zip around as I please because I'm well within my range.

And so we can continue with the analogy. If you spend 99% of your time driving screws and 1% driving nails, you'll find the screwdriver to be a more effective tool.

Nubo,
you forget. it is about freedom.
americans love freedom.
we justify everything because freedom.

guns - freedom
drones - freedom
no regulations - freedom
drill - freedom
wall street - freedom
banksters - freedom
war - freedom
free trade - freedom
car that can go 800 miles on a tank - freedom
never even use it - still freedom

 

[GaslessInSeattle]

According to data gathered by the Department of Transportation http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/policyinformation/pubs/hf/pl11028/chapter4.cfm#fig45, 97% of vehicle trips are less than 50 miles and 88% of them are under 20.

For 97% of all travel, the Tesla S is zero compromise, in fact it exceeds performance in the one key area so many Americans crave, acceleration. for the other 3% you can use a second gas car or if you find the benefits out way the cost, then you simply adjust your expectations and do your homework and make it work for you (charge up all the way, precondition the battery and cabin, moderate speed and HVAC use, etc) . if none of that suffices for you then the Tesla S is the wrong tool for the job you want it to do and you should choose a vehicle that better meets your specific needs.

If you don't think the car appeals to you, don't buy one.

That's a long way from "if the car doesn't appeal to you then you're being paid off by big oil" or some similar conspiracy theory, which has been the view expressed by some on this thread.

The problem with "the car is just a tool" justification is that, while it sounds fine, when your $100K vehicle proves sadly lacking when compared to any number of $20K vehicles then "your tool" has certain "marketing challenges". There is no circumstance under which you, fully understanding a Model S, can outperform a driver in the seat of any $20K ICE vehicle on a long distance drive. They will always win. You will always lose. It's not about understanding your tool. It's about having a tool which isn't suited for what you're trying to do. IOW any cheap hammer will outperform a screwdriver if you're driving nails.

As you point out, the problem has been created by Tesla and its "Zero Compromise" campaign. If you sell the Model S as a "no compromise" performance car and the reality your customers face is putting along in the slow lane to conserve range, pulling fuses to avoid significant loss of range due to parasitic losses, wasting time finding chargers, having to spend significant time waiting for charges, having to deal with buggy tire pressure sensors, and staying in trailer parks in order to fully charge the car, then the marketing promise isn't being realized on the ground. Not good. You mention that thousands of people have signed up for a Model S. Well, Yugo sold 35,00 - 50,000 cars a year ... for a few years before the yawning chasm which separated the marketing claims and the customer experience destroyed it.

 

[Nubo]

Nubo,
you forget. it is about freedom.
americans love freedom.
we justify everything because freedom.

guns - freedom
drones - freedom
no regulations - freedom
drill - freedom
wall street - freedom
banksters - freedom
war - freedom
free trade - freedom
car that can go 800 miles on a tank - freedom
never even use it - still freedom

Naw, I'm aware of that, and of the oddly convoluted logic that has over the years has managed to equate the reliance on foreign petroleum with American freedom. But it is possible to unplug from that Matrix. There are more EV drivers on the road everyday showing how.

 

[thankyouOB]

PV Solar = freedom
LEAF = Freedom
PV + LEAF = FREEDOM squared

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

PV Solar = freedom
LEAF = Freedom
PV + LEAF = FREEDOM squared

Amen!

 

[Train]

And this just affirms what I have stated many times. A person's time is worth more to them than standing around waiting for some "opportunity" charge

Train, you hit the nail on the head. This is precisely the reason why I bought the Leaf. If were to guesstimate I would have saved over 20+ hours of waiting time on refueling in the last 12 months of leaf ownership compared to my LX at 16 miles to a gallon. It was such a pain for me to stop at at the local gas station in the morning two or sometimes three times a week, jostling around other cars waiting for a spot, filling it up and burning up 15 minutes every time. Do your math: 52 *30 minutes = 25+ hours

I don't know about you. You may have a lot of time to burn sitting around smelly gas stations, but I am busy man and that is why I bought the Leaf.

15 minutes? What are you doing, washing it too? I've never waited even remotely that long to fill. 3 minutes...TOPS. Everytime. I'm in, I'm out.

Your math isn't even close to my math.