Breaking Bad. HOV lane edition

[lkkms2]

"Lexus Lanes" or "Rich People Lanes" is a tag that some people like to use, but it is really inappropriate.

If you buy a cup of coffee at Starbucks once or twice a day are you "Rich"?

"HOT" lanes, where single occupant vehicles are allowed to pay to use the HOV lanes with a variable fee based on mainlane congestion, is an attempt to maximize the use of our existing freeway infrastructure. Carpooling is still encouraged, which helps everyone traveling the freeways, but many businesses as well as individuals pay extra to use the HOV lanes. The old adage "Time is Money" really applies. The more congested the mainlanes get the higher the cost to use the HOV lanes. The goal is to keep the HOV lanes flowing better than the congested mainlanes, but allow those businesses and individuals whose "time" is valuable to make the choice. HOT lanes are generally used more in the mornings and during the day by those that need to meet a deadline, less so in the evenings on the way home.

This variable fee HOT Lane concept, based on mainlane congestion, was only recently made possible by combining newer technology of transponders with traffic detection and integrating with automated payment systems. Most if not all of the funds collected go back into helping pay for transportation infrastructure and operational needs.

The federal gas tax hasn't been raised in more than twenty years (although I think it should be) and the HOT lanes as stated earlier are an attempt to better utilize the existing infrastructure.

When the HOT lanes started in San Diego on the I-15 Reversible Lanes (now Managed Express Lanes) they set up an innovative way to use the funds collected. The funds helped pay for the cost of providing and operating Express Busses from North County to downtown and central business districts, thus still encouraging folks to leave their cars at home, reducing congestion on the freeways.

 

[thankyouOB]

you guys sound like the propagandists from METRO, who sell the HOT lanes with weak data.
so far in LA, there is no data that shows HOT lanes make the other lanes, when they are congested, anything but slower. so the HOT laners get a benefit and the rest of us get screwed: EVs, two-car and three-car commuters who dont shell out for the transponders, etc.

the social utility of HOV lanes is to reduce air pollution.
there is no equivalent purpose with regard to the HOT lanes where you pay to play. It is simply another privilege for the wealthy or those who can write off the expense.
yes, there are some bus improvements...but my experience with the new HOT lanes in central LA County is they work really well for those who can pay. The folks who REALLY get screwed, are the cars with multiple drivers who are barred from the Lexus Lanes because they havent spent the bucks on the transponders.

That the lanes sometimes include additional buses for commuters is a plus, but the data is not in to show whether that has increased ridership enough to balance out the slowdown in the regular lanes.
The last time METRO released any data they declined to break out the speeds in the regular lanes on the Harbor Freeway north of the 105. That is where the daily congestion is. I wonder why.

as to the starbucks analogy, if you buy two starbucks coffee a day, you are either well off or foolish; $50 bucks a week is $2500 a year, that and bringing lunch to work helped me pay for my kids to go to college.

 

[RonDawg]

you guys sound like the propagandists from METRO, who sell the HOT lanes with weak data.

No, I am just pointing out that as an EV driver who enjoys both government subsidies for obtaining your vehicle, and privileges only open to BEVs and PHEVS (solo regular HOV lane access), you're not in a position to criticize the "rich" who opt to use those lanes.

the social utility of HOV lanes is to reduce air pollution.

No, the social utility of an HOV lane is reduce traffic congestion by encouraging carpooling. Reducing air pollution is a side benefit, through reduced carbon emissions caused by having fewer ICEVs on the road, but a solo BEV/PHEV does not reduce traffic congestion. The government is letting BEVs and PHEVs travel solo in these lanes (for the time being) as well as subsidizing our purchases/leases of same as encouragement to purchase a vehicle that would otherwise be considered too expensive for what you are getting.

 

[thankyouOB]

lexus lanes
http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-toll-lane-405-oc-20131101,0,1779687.story#axzz2kM3ewvbn" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
lexus lanes.

you have no political or official support from the brain trust of conservative thinking in Orange County, CA.
even some of the most conservative office holders in Orange County -- for starters, the mayors of costa mesa and huntington beach, and the county supervisor made famous for predicting the OC bankruptcy -- call them lexus lanes and consider them a rip off of the public.

who you gonna cal for help. now? ghostbusters?

---
as to your other argument about the rationale for HOV; actually, the social utility for HOV lanes is to reduce pollution, getting cars off the road is part of that strategy.

 

[derkraut]

you guys sound like the propagandists from METRO, who sell the HOT lanes with weak data.
so far in LA, there is no data that shows HOT lanes make the other lanes, when they are congested, anything but slower. so the HOT laners get a benefit and the rest of us get screwed: EVs, two-car and three-car commuters who dont shell out for the transponders, etc.

the social utility of HOV lanes is to reduce air pollution.
their is no equivalent purpose with regard to the HOT lanes where you pay to play. It is simply another privilege for the wealthy or those who can write off the expense.
yes, there are some bus improvements...but my experience with the new HOT lanes in central LA County is they work really well for those who can pay. The folks who REALLY get screwed, are the cars with multiple drivers who are barred from the Lexus Lanes because they havent spent the bucks on the transponders.

That the lanes sometimes include additional buses for commuters is a plus, but the data is not in to show whether that has increased ridership enough to balance out the slowdown in the regular lanes.
The last time METRO released any data they declined to break out the speeds in the regular lanes on the Harbor Freeway north of the 105. That is where the daily congestion is. I wonder why.

as to the starbucks analogy, if you buy two starbucks coffee a day, you are either well off or foolish; $50 bucks a week is $2500 a year, that and bringing lunch to work helped me pay for my kids to go to college.

+1 My sentiments exactly.

 

[TomT]

Though, if that is true and you want to be technical about it, hybrids should have never been let in to the HOV lanes then as they do better in stop and go (city) traffic than at a constant speed (highway)...

the social utility of HOV lanes is to reduce air pollution.

 

[dhanson865]

Though, if that is true and you want to be technical about it, hybrids should have never been let in to the HOV lanes then as they do better in stop and go (city) traffic than at a constant speed (highway)...

the social utility of HOV lanes is to reduce air pollution.

Better relatively but not absolutely.

My Prius might get 30 mpg in stop and go vs 2 mpg for some traditional car but I'll get 60 MPG at constant speed if I have a choice of how fast I go.

Yes the old Prius had a better EPA city number than EPA highway but neither score was based on how I'd drive my car. They are both just synthetic scores based on a test profile made up decades ago.

oh and sure I can get 100 mpg + at the exact perfect speed of traffic (something around 10-15 mph) but I've never been in traffic that stayed in that speed range consistently. They always accordion causing stop and go or at least slow and speed up. Even if you try to leave super long gaps, I've had 10+ car length gaps still not be enough to keep me from using my brakes in stop and go.

 

[davewill]

Want an answer? How about this. YES I think it should be allowed. Why? Because I can afford it.

Well, if I didn't already think it was a bad idea, this single statement would have convinced me. You have no clue why it's wrong at all...You just see your personal privilege as something virtuous. It reminds me of affluent school districts where the rich contribute to their local "foundation" while voting to cut taxes and school budgets which kills poorer districts that can't make it up in donations.

By your thinking, BEVs and PHEVs should also be banned from HOV lanes. Would you be agreeable to that? Are you going to peel off those white stickers from the back of your Leaf?

I'd make that deal in a heartbeat. I always thought it was a bad idea to let ANY single occupancy vehicles into those lanes...but at least there's a fig leaf of a public purpose behind the Alt Fuel stickers (but a fig leaf is all it really is IMO). Besides, it pisses people off too much when I do 60-65 in the carpool lane to conserve range, anyway.

 

[TomT]

Actually, I was speaking only in terms of emissions, which do not necessarily correlate to MPG... In terms of emissions, hybrids are cleanest at relatively slow speeds and stop and go driving, per the EPA data...

But regardless, using HOV lanes as anything but relief for congestion (by requiring two or more per vehicle) is simply bad politics and policy... It also makes sense to open them up to all vehicles during non-rush hours... And charging for them is wrong on every level!

Though, if that is true and you want to be technical about it, hybrids should have never been let in to the HOV lanes then as they do better in stop and go (city) traffic than at a constant speed (highway)...

the social utility of HOV lanes is to reduce air pollution.

Better relatively but not absolutely.

 

[thankyouOB]

+1 My sentiments exactly.

we are agreeing more and more frequently.
a good thing.
and thanks for the support.

 

[RonDawg]

Want an answer? How about this. YES I think it should be allowed. Why? Because I can afford it.

Well, if I didn't already think it was a bad idea, this single statement would have convinced me. You have no clue why it's wrong at all...You just see your personal privilege as something virtuous. It reminds me of affluent school districts where the rich contribute to their local "foundation" while voting to cut taxes and school budgets which kills poorer districts that can't make it up in donations.

Actually you seem to have missed my sarcasm in that statement.

I never said I was being virtuous. I think I even implied I was NOT being virtuous, because I said that BEV/PHEV drivers who use the carpool lanes solo are morally no better than ICEV drivers who drove solo in the HOT lanes for a fee. And I do both, as I use the El Monte Busway on occasion, hence my "doubly rich" statement.

It's thankyouOB who is trying to turn the latter into villains, when he is a BEV/PHEV driver who enjoys government subsidies and privileges not available to ICEV drivers at all. Sorry, but that's the pot calling the kettle black. There are many ICEV drivers who think we as BEV/PHEV adopters are just as privileged.

By your thinking, BEVs and PHEVs should also be banned from HOV lanes. Would you be agreeable to that? Are you going to peel off those white stickers from the back of your Leaf?

I'd make that deal in a heartbeat. I always thought it was a bad idea to let ANY single occupancy vehicles into those lanes...but at least there's a fig leaf of a public purpose behind the Alt Fuel stickers (but a fig leaf is all it really is IMO). Besides, it pisses people off too much when I do 60-65 in the carpool lane to conserve range, anyway.

I stay out of the carpool lanes except when traffic is going under 35 MPH for the same reason...to conserve range. But I do appreciate having that privilege, even if I have to pay for it on occasion. But I'm not trying to pass myself off as virtuous either, because I'm no better than that "rich" class that thankyouOB maligns.

 

[thankyouOB]

i am not going to go back and forth repeating the same arguments, but i will say there is no moral issue here.
there are fairness issues, policy issues and pollution issues.
but in Orange County, they have just (12-9-13)said no to toll lanes sted of hov lanes:


Orange County transportation leaders voted Monday to expand a clogged stretch of the 405 Freeway without adding toll lanes, which were strongly opposed by cities along the project route.

Ending months of rancorous debate, Orange County Transportation Authority board members voted to pursue an expansion plan that would add one free lane in each direction along a 11-mile stretch of the 405 from the 605 Freeway to Euclid Street.

The most controversial alternative would have added two high-occupancy toll lanes in each direction along a 14-mile stretch of the freeway.

http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-oc-405-no-toll-lanes-20131209,0,5512978.story#ixzz2n1FTXyI2" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;