Bay Area class tensions relating to tech workers & shuttles

[garsh]

However, I fail to see injustice in someone being priced out of a high-end real estate market.

Bingo.

AndyH, you keep bringing up all of these great injustices - both real and fictional - but they have NOTHING to do with the anti-gentrification protesters in San Francisco.

 

[Nubo]

As I said before - those of you that have no idea what I'm talking about, or don't understand what the protesters are pushing back against - count your blessings.

I do have an idea of what you're talking about. Both of my parents grew up very poor. But they also had enough class that I'm absolutely sure they would not have protested against people trying to get to an honest job in a bus, much less engaged in vandalism.

 

[AndyH]

As I said before - those of you that have no idea what I'm talking about, or don't understand what the protesters are pushing back against - count your blessings.

I do have an idea of what you're talking about. Both of my parents grew up very poor. But they also had enough class that I'm absolutely sure they would not have protested against people trying to get to an honest job in a bus, much less engaged in vandalism.

Maybe so, Nubo. And you and they might have judged it as 'class' at the time. But in your folk's world, the people heading to their honest job would be using public transit if available. I remember times growing up when my dad and others swapped rides to GM - public transit wasn't an option for them.

Today is not the 1950s or 1960s, though. You might have noticed the Arab Spring, the European Summer, Occupy Wall Street (which went global), as well as all the Occupy folks that are still working today helping people survive the financial meltdown and fraudulent home repossession problem. We have a serious problem with income and opportunity equality all over this planet. It appears that we're living through the last dying gasps of an economic experiment that's to the point of clawing through people and the earth on it's way out. Not everyone feeling the claws are happy and yes, some are protesting and fighting back.

I don't think I have a handle on all the system changes yet, but Occupy and other 'be the change' and 'create the new paradigm that makes the old obsolete' groups are working well. On the financial side, we have the growth of barter, local currencies, and decentralized cryptocoins. Community food is growing (ug...pun), car sharing, etc. etc.

I see the protests as one location where the old and new are making contact. I expect to see more of this, especially as the old systems continue to thrash and kick.

 

[mwalsh]

especially as the old systems continue to thrash and kick.

And that's the problem right there. The old systems should just die (with whatever dignity they have left) already.

 

[Nubo]

I see the protests as one location where the old and new are making contact.

That doesn't make it any more legitimate. Someone writing code for Google is not an enemy of the people and does not deserve to be the target of protests, hindered or threatened on their way to work.

Protesters who make asses of themselves in public don't gain my sympathy or respect. When Occupy trample public spaces and break storefront windows they do not gain my sympathy or respect. The opposite, in fact.

 

[klapauzius]

The outcome of all the gentrification will be that we will have all low-income nicely sorted from all high income people (spatially).

I think in many places this has become a reality.
I dont think that this kind if separation will do us any good long term, irrespective how just or unjust this development might be perceived.

 

[LTLFTcomposite]

If you ask Americans if they could have one wish many would tell you it would be to win the lottery. Go visit some place like Chad, you would quickly realize that every person born here already won the lottery.

 

[klapauzius]

If you ask Americans if they could have one wish many would tell you it would be to win the lottery. Go visit some place like Chad, you would quickly realize that every person born here already won the lottery.

Yes, that would be the global equivalent of what we observe locally, albeit on a different level.
In the end, it wont matter why some people are poor and some are rich, the concentration and separation of poor people never amounts to much good. Replace Chad, with Afghanistan, and this becomes more apparent (although Chad is aspiring to be the next Afghanistan).

So how do rents and cost of living compare to incomes, of e.g. a cleaning lady or a waiter in the Bay area?

The other problem of gentrification is that all the menial jobs will not be sustainable, so who is cleaning your houses, mowing the lawn, serving you food, delivering packets etc. ?

 

[AndyH]

I see the protests as one location where the old and new are making contact.

That doesn't make it any more legitimate. Someone writing code for Google is not an enemy of the people and does not deserve to be the target of protests, hindered or threatened on their way to work.

Protesters who make asses of themselves in public don't gain my sympathy or respect. When Occupy trample public spaces and break storefront windows they do not gain my sympathy or respect. The opposite, in fact.

Perspective is important - nobody is standing on the side of the street saying: "See that guy in the van with the blue tie? HE'S THE ENEMY!" The enemy is the process that sees 'the little people' as something to push aside. As well as the point of view that sees them as 'little people' to begin with.

Occupy didn't 'trample public spaces - they're PUBLIC SPACES! (By the way, the folks in Zuccotti park in NYC had permission from the private land owner. That only changed when politicians pressured the land owners to revoke the permission.) Also - Occupy is about non-violence - their folks didn't break the windows.

Even after a 21+ year military career, the best advice I heard on such things came from a retiring constitutional law professor: You can't keep your rights unless you exercise them.

I think we could all use more exercise.

 

[klapauzius]

I see the protests as one location where the old and new are making contact. I expect to see more of this, especially as the old systems continue to thrash and kick.

Notably, the big difference to the 50 and 60s is also that income inequality is at an all time high in the US. At the same time, social upward mobility in this country is at its lowest. An unhealthy combination.

 

[LTLFTcomposite]

The other problem of gentrification is that all the menial jobs will not be sustainable, so who is cleaning your houses, mowing the lawn, serving you food, delivering packets etc. ?

In that case won't the labor markets in those areas command higher wages, even for "jobs Americans won't do" ?

 

[klapauzius]

The other problem of gentrification is that all the menial jobs will not be sustainable, so who is cleaning your houses, mowing the lawn, serving you food, delivering packets etc. ?

In that case won't the labor markets in those areas command higher wages, even for "jobs Americans won't do" ?

I suspect that the wages will be higher, but not in proper proportion to the cost of living, so relatively speaking, people are poorer in high cost of living areas. Minimum wage in SF is $10.55 and cost of living index is 152 for SF (vs 100 nationally). So effectively people with minimum wage jobs make less than the national minimum wage of $7.25.

If you consider housing, the index for SF is 243, so effective minimum wage with regard to that is a mere $4.34/h.

 

[mbender]

Back to the private buses. Isn't part of the issue the fact that they are stopping at public bus stops? If so, I think the city or county has every right to charge them whatever they wish for the right to do so. Aren't bus stops red "No stopping" zones? If a cop or parking inspector saw any of us stopped (in a LEAF, of course) in such a zone for as long as what a typical pick-up takes, we'd quite likely receive a parking ticket.

So if all the above is true, perhaps the city/county should charge all of the companies a hefty fee: if not $1 billion per year (as it suggested in one flyer), then maybe the price of a ticket * the total # of stops per year*? And the public that uses public transit would have every right to protest that (free corporate use/interference of public space).

Unrelated to the buses, I believe that another source of the protesters anger is that the city gave HUGE tax breaks and other incentives to keep the likes of Twitter in the city. The poor and/or locals perceive this as class favoritism which ends up hurting them. Appropriate or not, the bus stops are probably the most convenient place for making this anger known.


* The sfgate article in the original post says 30 companies make an average of 4,000 stops(!) at public bus stops per workday. Assuming 250 workdays per year and $125 per ticket, the yearly grand total would amount to $125 million. The follow-up article said the new fee-structure would bring in a paltry $1.5 million per year ($1 fee per stop). Why they didn't just make it at least $10 per stop is beyond me, but it's probably because they didn't want to anger the corporations that run and use the buses.

 

[Nubo]

When Occupy trample public spaces and break storefront windows they do not gain my sympathy or respect.

Occupy didn't 'trample public spaces - they're PUBLIC SPACES!

Public spaces, not garbage dumps.

"Sanitation officials said Wednesday that they expect to haul away 30 tons of debris from the Occupy L.A. encampment –- everything from clothing to heaps of garbage to oddball curiosities left behind by the protesters who lived at the City Hall tent city for two months.

Andrea Alarcon, president of the city Public Works board, said workers already have removed 25 tons of belongings from the City Hall park, all of it heading straight to a landfill." -- Los Angeles Times

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2011/11/occupy-la-30-tons-of-debris-left-behind-at-city-hall-tent-city.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[AndyH]

When Occupy trample public spaces and break storefront windows they do not gain my sympathy or respect.

Occupy didn't 'trample public spaces - they're PUBLIC SPACES!

Public spaces, not garbage dumps.

Come on, Nubo - seriously?

"Sanitation officials said Wednesday that they expect to haul away 30 tons of debris from the Occupy L.A. encampment –- everything from clothing to heaps of garbage to oddball curiosities left behind by the protesters who lived at the City Hall tent city for two months.

Andrea Alarcon, president of the city Public Works board, said workers already have removed 25 tons of belongings from the City Hall park, all of it heading straight to a landfill." -- Los Angeles Times

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2011/11/occupy-la-30-tons-of-debris-left-behind-at-city-hall-tent-city.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Yeah - oddball curiosities like tents, their stocked medical tent, library with thousands of books, pedal generators for power, personal clothing, etc.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/...-lawsuits-nyc-library-property_n_3048772.html

NEW YORK, April 9 (Reuters) - New York City has agreed to pay Occupy Wall Street protesters more than $100,000 for property damaged or lost when police cleared out their encampment in a downtown Manhattan park in 2011, according to court documents signed on Tuesday.

It appears that your position on this issue doesn't extend beyond what the mainstream media reported and that's fine - that's your right. But it absolutely does not paint a correct picture of the reality of the situations. The tactics used by police were military in nature. They became more frustrated when faced with people that stood their ground while exercising their Constitutional rights of peaceful assembly and free speech. There was a coordinated effort to paint these assemblies as being unsanitary or of being unsafe for children - the same types of BS used against Dr. King's assemblies not that many years ago.

Come on - free American citizens coming together, learning from each other, overcoming stereotypes, experimenting with new forms of decentralized organizations, actually talking with and getting to know each other? Buying and making local food and processing grey water on site? Suggesting that corporations have become so powerful that they've usurped the power of the citizenry? And - heaven forbid - sharing books and charging cellphones and computers from solar panels and pedal generators? That goes against the power company, the banking system, the water company, and apparently the local police force. After all, they won't get more "Homeland Security" money if they don't show that they're actually using the flak vests and pepper spray, will they?

I won't continue this tangent - I agree that it's fine to disagree. As for the peaceful eviction of Occupy LA, I'm with this 28 year old veteran:

Twenty-eight-year-old Sam Gray, an Army veteran, said he is angry that the city "took its word back." "I took an oath to uphold the Constitution and in my opinion, the police are trampling on it," he said."

http://www.democracynow.org/blog/20...us_used_to_monitor_occupy_movement_nationwide
http://www.democracynow.org/2013/9/19/two_years_after_occupy_wall_street
http://www.democracynow.org/2013/10/10/headlines#101013

An undercover New York City police officer arrested in the infamous motorcycle-gang incident on the West Side Highway has been found to have previously spied on Occupy Wall Street. Detective Wojciech Braszczok was detained after taking part in an attack on a motorist in an SUV that was caught on video. Occupy activists say Braszczok was previously arrested as an undercover officer posing as a demonstrator in Grand Central Station. Braszczok is with the NYPD’s Intelligence Division.

http://www.democracynow.org/2013/11/19/headlines#111912

An offshoot of Occupy Wall Street has announced it has bought up and forgiven $14.7 million worth of U.S. medical debt over the past year. The Occupy Wall Street’s Strike Debt group launched its "Rolling Jubilee" effort to buy distressed debt from financial firms, often for pennies on the dollar, and then cancel it so that borrowers do not have to repay. The group says it has spent more than $400,000 to buy up medical debt and relieve some 2,600 patients of their financial burdens.

http://occupyourhomes.org/

Neighbors block eviction for Minneapolis homeowner who paid for house five times

edit...can't believe I forgot this...Occupy was on the ground after Superstorm Sandy before state or federal relief...
http://occupysandy.net/

Occupy Sandy is a grassroots disaster relief network that emerged to provide mutual aid to communities affected by Superstorm Sandy.

/edit

Charlie Rose, Amy Goodwin, 24 Oct 2011
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jTvQv8-SdBM[/youtube]

 

[LTLFTcomposite]

http://occupyourhomes.org/

Neighbors block eviction for Minneapolis homeowner who paid for house five times

That is a very strange story. If Ms. Kelly owned her home free and clear, how was Chase (or Freddie Mac) able to prosecute a foreclosure?

 

[AndyH]

http://occupyourhomes.org/

Neighbors block eviction for Minneapolis homeowner who paid for house five times

That is a very strange story. If Ms. Kelly owned her home free and clear, how was Chase (or Freddie Mac) able to prosecute a foreclosure?

The same way the industry's been foreclosing on military members even when there are federal laws in place to protect them from such foreclosure. That's part of the reason for the disgust with the banking industry.

http://thinkprogress.org/economy/20...llions-of-dollars-in-mortgages-have-no-owner/

Despite the growing mountain of evidence of fraud in both mortgage securitization and foreclosures, the federal government’s response has been feeble. The 2012 settlement has failed to stop bank abuses. A much-touted program to provide relief to homeowners failed to serve nearly as many as intended, and half of the mortgages modified under it are back in default. And over the weekend, the Justice Department admitted it had dramatically inflated its successes in a yearlong task force targeting mortgage abuses.

People in this country are hurting - and the problem isn't that 'some deadbeat just stopped paying their mortgage' or 'get off unemployment and get a job like a respectable citizen'. It's a complex web of financial crisis, bank fraud, increasingly powerful supranational corporations, a push for 'efficiency' which means business needs fewer people - all leads to higher unemployment which pushes labor prices down and provides an environment where businesses don't have to take care of their employees because their replacements are lined up down the sidewalk. Hell, in the 50s and 60s (and 80s...) a kid from a depressed area could start climbing the ladder by joining the military - but even that option doesn't exist today. Welcome to a brave new world - would you like fries with that?

 

[LTLFTcomposite]

I still don't understand, a mortgage secures a note for money the bank lent. The borrower makes payments to repay the loan as specified in the contract. If the payments are not made, the lender forecloses. If you can't foreclose on a mortgage, who will ever want to lend money for people to buy houses? Or for that matter, what would motivate anyone to ever make a mortgage payment?

I have heard of a few cases where banks mistakenly seized the wrong home, and didn't hear the final outcome but I'm guessing sharp lawyers took those cases in a heartbeat and collected damages.

I am a firm believer all consumer lending should be non-recourse. This stuff should not be clogging up the courts. When you lend money there's a risk you won't be repaid, plain and simple. The greater weight of moral hazard should lie with the lender, they are the ones who should know better, not consumers.

Have you considered the possibility that more people were harmed in the housing crisis not because there were too many foreclosures, or bank were too quick to foreclose, but rather because they did so too slowly, and the process was allowed to drag out far longer than it should have, particularly in judicial states (like Florida) ??

 

[AndyH]

I still don't understand, a mortgage secures a note for money the bank lent. The borrower makes payments to repay the loan as specified in the contract. If the payments are not made, the lender forecloses.

I think I already provided you two examples of where this isn't working. Yes, I agree - in a nice stable economy, or especially in a slowly rising one, things can work like this. The problem is we are NOT in one of those situations. And binding arbitration - a tool designed to skirt consumer protection laws - wasn't a 'thing' in the 1950s...

I included examples and many more words than necessary in my post to head-off a narrowly-focused question such as this - and you typed it anyway.

I strongly recommend that you NOT read Naomi Klein's "The Shock Doctrine" or watch the documentary based on the book because you are not likely to enjoy a story line that strays so far from a mainstream media view. I certainly wouldn't want to suggest that these too big to fail corporations would be strong enough to created a crisis so they could more dramatically change their profitability - I mean, how could they know that the sitting president would advise the country to buy more as way to heal after 9-11?

 

[TomT]

I was down there a few times... I have to side with Nubo on this one. The filth, destruction and civil disobedience was rampant at Occupy L.A. I lost all respect for them.

Public spaces, not garbage dumps.