Bay Area class tensions relating to tech workers & shuttles

[AndyH]

I was down there a few times... I have to side with Nubo on this one. The filth, destruction and civil disobedience was rampant at Occupy L.A.

Public spaces, not garbage dumps.

Then I guess that was an LA thing. It wasn't the case in NYC (I wasn't there but have acquaintances that were) or in Occupy Austin.

While 'filth' and 'destruction' might be subjective, it's my understanding that 'civil disobedience' is generally the point of a protest...

 

[klapauzius]

I still don't understand, a mortgage secures a note for money the bank lent. The borrower makes payments to repay the loan as specified in the contract. If the payments are not made, the lender forecloses. If you can't foreclose on a mortgage, who will ever want to lend money for people to buy houses? Or for that matter, what would motivate anyone to ever make a mortgage payment?

I suspect this is true for most mortgages, but not for all.

If you think about what kind of mortgages have been sold in the past to people, who could barely read and write, let alone understand the insidious mess they were talked into by the banks, these simple and straight forward arrangements ,that you outlined, appear more ethical complex than they should be.

 

[LTLFTcomposite]

I included examples and many more words than necessary in my post to head-off a narrowly-focused question such as this - and you typed it anyway.

I saw your article about some lady who paid for her house five time but still got foreclosed - no details. She must have been a lottery winner to bring that much cash to closing when she bought the house, and somebody did some sloppy work handling the closing to not notice that overpayment. Or is that not what was meant by paying five times?

 

[AndyH]

Sorry all...last departure from the core of the thread.

Nubo - this is the core of what Occupy is - this is a TEDx from one of the OWS/Occupy Sandy members.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XRp95JO9oPI[/youtube]

Give it a shot - if nothing else, it's got rum and stew in it.

After watching all of it - it's actually not off topic at all.

 

[AndyH]

I included examples and many more words than necessary in my post to head-off a narrowly-focused question such as this - and you typed it anyway.

I saw your article about some lady who paid for her house five time but still got foreclosed - no details. She must have been a lottery winner to bring that much cash to closing when she bought the house, and somebody did some sloppy work handling the closing to not notice that overpayment. Or is that not what was meant by paying five times?

You had to skip over a lot of text to get to that link, right?

 

[LTLFTcomposite]

You had to skip over a lot of text to get to that link, right?

Yeah, a WHOLE lot... quite the tome. Actually I skimmed it, but didn't really intend to get into an argument over occupy this that or the other thing. I was just perplexed by the assumed inequity in how Ms Kelley was treated and curious what criteria the mob uses to deem her contract was unjust. Maybe they can get me out of my Leaf lease.

 

[AndyH]

You had to skip over a lot of text to get to that link, right?

Yeah, a WHOLE lot... quite the tome. Actually I skimmed it, but didn't really intend to get into an argument over occupy this that or the other thing. I was just perplexed by the assumed inequity in how Ms Kelley was treated and curious what criteria the mob uses to deem her contract was unjust. Maybe they can get me out of my Leaf lease.

Just a little bit of empathy? No desire at all to click the link to find that these are all hard-working people that were affected by the recession and did their parts but were screwed over by the banks? Don't care about Vietnam war vets working two jobs with a wife working for TSA? No spark of recognition for the thousands of others that were caught up in fraud through no fault of their own? No? Sorry to hear that - truly. May your life continue as smoothly and perfectly as it has till now.

 

[LTLFTcomposite]

^ Maybe I missed something, re the lady in Minnesota who lived in her house 30 years... cliicked through the links and didn't see any details, how much did she owe, what was her interest rate, all I saw was the story of people blocking her removal from the house, and her daughter's 23rd birthday. It just struck me as odd, after 30 years you'd think the mortgage would have been paid off, not to mention the house having substantially appreciated.

 

[Nubo]

I was down there a few times... I have to side with Nubo on this one. The filth, destruction and civil disobedience was rampant at Occupy L.A. I lost all respect for them.

Which is why I cringe when someone tries to draw parallels with MLK protests. King knew that for the message to be effective the protesters moral rectitude had to be above reproach. You don't win a moral argument with slovenly behavior, vandalism or destruction.

 

[AndyH]

I was down there a few times... I have to side with Nubo on this one. The filth, destruction and civil disobedience was rampant at Occupy L.A. I lost all respect for them.

Which is why I cringe when someone tries to draw parallels with MLK protests. King knew that for the message to be effective the protesters moral rectitude had to be above reproach. You don't win a moral argument with slovenly behavior, vandalism or destruction.

And if you understood anything about OWS you'd find that they demanded all to be above reproach! But since your mind's made up there's no point in continuing, is there?

If you choose to review the timeline - especially for Oakland - you'll find that it was one of the later protest sites after police used excessive force in other areas. After the police cleared the Oakland camp, protesters marched back - all in public spaces - to go back to the grounds. Oakland police lobbed a flash/bang grenade into a group of people helping a veteran that had been hit in the head with a fired tear gas grenade at close range and had cracked his skull. The kid served two tours of duty in Iraq and wasn't injured there. That's what led to seriously increased tensions and the port strike/closure the next month.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZLyUK0t0vQ[/youtube]
There is no honor in this.


http://gothamist.com/2013/10/10/occupys_undercover_shady_ubiquitous.php
http://downtowndevil.com/2013/05/27...ice-involvement-in-occupy-movement-community/
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/01/05/fbi-occupy-wall-street_n_2410783.html

At times, the documents are contradictory and show FBI agents spreading false information. The earliest memo erroneously describes Adbusters, the Canadian magazine that came up with the idea behind Occupy, as a "self-identified American revolutionary anarchist group." In another, OWS is lumped in with the "Aryan Nations (sic)" and hacker-activists Anonymous as "domestic terrorists."

http://www.rollingstone.com/culture/news/the-plot-against-occupy-20120926
http://www.prwatch.org/news/2013/05/12120/how-government-targeted-occupy

In our new report, "Dissent or Terror: How the Nation's Counter Terrorism Apparatus, in Partnership with Corporate America, Turned on Occupy Wall Street," written by Center for Media and Democracy contributor and DBA Press publisher Beau Hodai, we detail several ways in which our tax dollars are being squandered on law enforcement -- or so-called "homeland security" personnel monitoring Americans who dare to voice dissent against the extraordinary influence that some of the world's most powerful corporations have on our elected officials.

http://afscatlanta.blogspot.com/2012/01/thoughts-on-my-recent-arrests.html

Before the police officers warned the crowd to disperse from the street I had already gotten onto the side walk. One of the police Lieutenants yelled to his officers, "Get him" and pointed at me. The police had to worm their way through the crowd in order to grab me and drag me into the street.

When I was dragged into the street, I asked the lieutenant what he was doing and he said, "arresting you."
"For what", I asked.
"For being in the street", he said.
"But I was on the sidewalk", I replied.
"You're not now", he said with a smile.

 

[Nubo]

And if you understood anything about OWS you'd find that they demanded all to be above reproach! But since your mind's made up there's no point in continuing, is there?

I'm getting tired of that tune. Is your mind already made up? Is your mind somehow better than my mind?

Yes, law enforcement also acted poorly. Again, that is not an excuse for bad behavior from the protest, but an opportunity to rise above it and win hearts and minds by comparison. Just as the Freedom Marchers endured police brutality willingly and without resistance. It wasn't the riots and destruction of the '60's that changed hearts and minds. It was those people who clearly showed the face of oppression by marching into it calmly and with dignity. And it's not enough to publish guidelines, the group must be self-policing to weed out bad behavior and also prevent the damage of infiltrators placed by their opponents to tarnish their reputation.

 

[AndyH]

And if you understood anything about OWS you'd find that they demanded all to be above reproach! But since your mind's made up there's no point in continuing, is there?

I'm getting tired of that tune. Is your mind already made up? Is your mind somehow better than my mind?

Not better, Nubo, but maybe not as quick to pre-judge. I don't know. Let me know if you want to explore this further and we'll take it to a different channel.

Yes, law enforcement also acted poorly. Again, that is not an excuse for bad behavior from the protest, but an opportunity to rise above it and win hearts and minds by comparison. Just as the Freedom Marchers endured police brutality willingly and without resistance. It wasn't the riots and destruction of the '60's that changed hearts and minds. It was those people who clearly showed the face of oppression by marching into it calmly and with dignity. And it's not enough to publish guidelines, the group must be self-policing to weed out bad behavior and also prevent the damage of infiltrators placed by their opponents to tarnish their reputation.

And frankly, anyone that knows the protests recognizes how off-balance your view is - that's really ALL I'm trying to point out to you. In the real world OWS did self-police and work together - they did then and have continued to do so to the present. It's your view that confuses me.

You suggest that the movement should have prevented the damage caused by the infiltrators. For the anarchist types I agree - and it appears some 'self deported' as well (outlined in the Rolling Stone piece linked above). But the rest? This is how I know you're not reading or listening, Nubo, because the infiltrators were there at the behest of Wall St firms in NYC and either police, FBI, or Homeland Security in other parts of the country. The police were dragging people off sidewalks into roads to arrest them because they were on the road. Police were crossing their own lines in Oakland and pulling people out to arrest them - that's what caused the trouble there! Another point of contrast - in the 50s and 60s the police weren't wearing body armor and lobbing grenades. Folks protesting today are in a much more dangerous position than at any time in our history.

I can also tell you didn't watch the TEDx talk from Occupy Sandy. This movement is truly grass-roots - it's leaderless. It's people helping their neighbors. It's people standing up and saying that money is not speech and that corporations are not people and that at some point 'democracy' stopped working for the American people. For some reason, however, the US press ignored the protests early on, and if them mentioned them at all simply offered a slur and a giggle and moved on. As for their appearance, when was the last time you took a coat and tie - or a visited a dry cleaner - when you were camping? I know I never have.

The words you use to paint the entire movement are EXACTLY the words used by the US media - are you aware of that? It's no more valid or accurate than painting the entire USAF as a group of cheating druggies because of the actions of 10 or so criminals.

I completely understand your point about our parents and what was considered acceptable behavior in the 1950s. And yet - I grew up in Flint and my dad worked for GM. Strikes were generally peaceful but some were not. Same for the civil rights movement. Let's not force today's protesters to hold themselves to some myth a few of us have in our revised memory - it's a considerably different world out there today.

My question for you is why? Why is it easier for you to brush aside hundreds of thousands of your fellow citizens as thugs and criminals? Why is it so much easier to accept and parrot a sound bite given to you by one of the corporations Occupy was protesting? No, you don't have to answer. I just wonder what some here would accept as proper - and then I wonder if those severely limited rules of engagement would accomplish anything useful.

Clearly we have a different view and that's fine. My view was shaped by being on active duty before, during, and after 9/11 and seeing and being part of some of the recent changes in this country from both the 'inside' and as a citizen. That's why I did and will continue to support Occupy and Move to Amend. They both honor the memories of Ghandi and Dr. King.

http://mshistory.k12.ms.us/articles...nt-in-mississippi-on-violence-and-nonviolence

The larger Civil Rights Movement can attribute its success to the tactic of nonviolence contrasting with the exposure of violence-prone policemen, sheriffs, vigilante groups, and other defenders of the status quo. Yet, the tactic of armed self-defense was indispensable in order to protect lives and property since the courts and law enforcement officials often stood silent or protected the perpetrators of racist violence. Thus, blacks and their supporters were compelled to fight the evils of segregation with nonviolence as well as with force. While this may seem paradoxical, it worked to advance their struggle for freedom, equality, and justice.

http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/99_percenters_occupy_wall_street_20110920?ln

I interviewed one of the “Occupy Wall Street” protest organizers. David Graeber teaches at Goldsmiths, University of London, and has authored several books, most recently “Debt: The First 5,000 Years.” Graeber points out that, in the midst of the financial crash of 2008, enormous debts between banks were renegotiated. Yet only a fraction of troubled mortgages have gotten the same treatment. He said: “Debts between the very wealthy or between governments can always be renegotiated and always have been throughout world history. ... It’s when you have debts owed by the poor to the rich that suddenly debts become a sacred obligation, more important than anything else. The idea of renegotiating them becomes unthinkable.”

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jbVqpsJ7lBc[/youtube]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O2-q-RBiWhk[/youtube]

 

[Nubo]

My question for you is why? Why is it easier for you to brush aside hundreds of thousands of your fellow citizens as thugs and criminals? Why is it so much easier to accept and parrot a sound bite given to you by one of the corporations Occupy was protesting? No, you don't have to answer. I just wonder what some here would accept as proper - and then I wonder if those severely limited rules of engagement would accomplish anything useful.

I'm not brushing aside anything or parroting anything. I can disagree with you without being under mind-control. This thread began about the SF shuttle buses and my complaint was about the vandalism and actions taken by the protesters there. You wished to make it a larger debate and I pointed out that the wider movement has also had problems with destructive and undignified behaviors. The end does not justify the means. I'm sure your movement has lots of honorable and well-intentioned people. Their protests need to be a little more like Selma and less like Woodstock.

 

[AndyH]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EhoAq6D6xGA[/youtube]

Useful analysis from a very mature big-picture thinker. FYI.

 

[AndyH]

http://www.care2.com/causes/how-the-google-bus-became-the-symbol-of-inequality-in-america.html

 

[Nubo]

Having employed, well-paid, tax-paying citizens reside in your city is generally seen by rational adults as a Good Thing. Using well-filled buses to move people about reduces the traffic and environmental impact per-person to low levels; generally seen by rational adults as a Good Thing. The protests are ridiculous and infantile. It's not Google's fault that the SF Muni bus system sucks, and has for generations.

 

[AndyH]

Having employed, well-paid, tax-paying citizens reside in your city is generally seen by rational adults as a Good Thing. Using well-filled buses to move people about reduces the traffic and environmental impact per-person to low levels; generally seen by rational adults as a Good Thing. The protests are ridiculous and infantile. It's not Google's fault that the SF Muni bus system sucks, and has for generations.

It's interesting, Nubo, to read your views on this. It reminds me of my time in uniform, sitting in watch centers through the night during the Cold War making sure the 'Godless communist hoards' stay on their own side of the border. See, it's common for people to use labels to belittle and dehumanize groups with which they don't agree - it makes it easier to draw a line in the sand. It also makes it easier to do things to them - like push them out of their neighborhood, or adopt policies that push them into bankruptcy, or go as far as killing them.

I would suggest that attitudes like yours, when institutionalized as they seem to be, result in reinforcing stereotypes, discrimination, arrogance, and ignorance. These are allowed to grow out of balance when compassion and various other human traits are allowed to atrophy. What others are finding is that when people thing inclusively, when they honor and nurture people outside their socioeconomic group, they build strong diverse neighborhoods that are better than the stratified mess that was a result of 'white flight' years ago.

If mass transit 'sucks', why isn't Google using their significant influence with politicians to make it better? Instead, they get massive tax breaks that takes money away from everyone in town, while using public infrastructure without paying for it. Most rational adults would view that as theft.

Have a nice nite.

 

[garsh]

If mass transit 'sucks', why isn't Google using their significant influence with politicians to make it better?

They did. The path of least resistance is to run their own buses.

while using public infrastructure without paying for it. Most rational adults would view that as theft.

It's funny - absolutely nobody thought of having private buses use public bus stops as "theft" until this whole SF/gentrification issue came up. Since then, Google met with the city and agreed to pay to use the bus stops. So now they're paying to use them, and you still want to call it theft. Most rational people would call that view... irrational.

 

[Nubo]

Having employed, well-paid, tax-paying citizens reside in your city is generally seen by rational adults as a Good Thing. Using well-filled buses to move people about reduces the traffic and environmental impact per-person to low levels; generally seen by rational adults as a Good Thing. The protests are ridiculous and infantile. It's not Google's fault that the SF Muni bus system sucks, and has for generations.

It's interesting, Nubo, to read your views on this. It reminds me of my time in uniform, sitting in watch centers through the night during the Cold War making sure the 'Godless communist hoards' stay on their own side of the border. See, it's common for people to use labels to belittle and dehumanize groups with which they don't agree - it makes it easier to draw a line in the sand. It also makes it easier to do things to them - like push them out of their neighborhood, or adopt policies that push them into bankruptcy, or go as far as killing them.

I would suggest that attitudes like yours, when institutionalized as they seem to be, result in reinforcing stereotypes, discrimination, arrogance, and ignorance. These are allowed to grow out of balance when compassion and various other human traits are allowed to atrophy. What others are finding is that when people thing inclusively, when they honor and nurture people outside their socioeconomic group, they build strong diverse neighborhoods that are better than the stratified mess that was a result of 'white flight' years ago.

If mass transit 'sucks', why isn't Google using their significant influence with politicians to make it better? Instead, they get massive tax breaks that takes money away from everyone in town, while using public infrastructure without paying for it. Most rational adults would view that as theft.

Have a nice nite.

1 - It's not an "us" vs. "them" issue even though the protesters and you wish to make it so. That disparity exists doesn't mean I root for it or wish to dehumanize anyone on either side. I've been there. I've ridden sucky city buses. I used to spend 3 or 4 hours a day on public transit between attending a community college and working a night shift. In Cleveland. I got frostbite waiting for the bus. Young and no money. Never crossed my mind to blame the wealthy.

2 - Neither Google nor their employees are "pushing people out of their neighborhoods". If rich people moved onto my street, I wouldn't be "pushed" anywhere. How ridiculous. I might sell for a nice profit. If I were renting the rents might increase and I would either pay them or move on to find a better deal, as I have done more than once in my life. Poor me! Help! I'm being repressed! Now you see the violence inherent in the system! Lol.

3 - It does take some arrogance to insist that Google, which is not headquartered in SF, must "use their influence with politicians" to improve SF's municipal transportation system. And while they're at it, maybe they could come and clean my gutters.

4 - Despite the fact that they were using the awesome "public infrastructure" of a bit of paint on the curb, and a sign, perhaps that was offset by the MILLIONS of tax dollars the city realized as a benefit of having so many Google employees live within its boundaries? Far more than might have done so if they had to drive personal transport to Silicon Valley. And these MILLIONS aren't enough? No, let's accuse them of THEFT!!

Is it better to dehumanize successful people instead of the less well-off? How about not dehumanizing anyone? There are plenty of ways to work towards increased equality of opportunity that are more dignified, and more effective than vandalism.

 

[cwerdna]

Hope RonDawg doesn't mind me posting this as he posted this in another forum...

Cassidy: Google bus protesters had the wrong target all along:
http://www.mercurynews.com/mike-cassidy/ci_24879597/cassidy-google-bus-protesters-had-wrong-target-all" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The editorial isn't all that interesting. The less-than-sympathetic comments are.