An Argument That We Need To Kill

[lpickup]

.. And the real question is: since your PiP completed charging at some point during dinner, and assuming you had some way of knowing when the charge was complete, would you have been willing to go outside and move the car to open up the spot for another EV? (And if the answer is yes, why didn't you?) ...

I sure wouldn't. You actually think it's reasonable to expect someone to get up from dinner to move the car? I got news for you, I'm not going to get up in the middle of my concert or movie and maybe not interrupt my shopping trip at the mall, either. The real answer is more infrastructure, not bullying of PHEV drivers.

Then my opinion is that you should not charge there if you are not willing to vacate the spot when your charge is complete. Yes, I agree that it is a hassle (or maybe downright impossible, say if you are at a symphony concert) to get up and move your car when it's done charging. However, an EVSE spot is intended to be used for CHARGING, not a perk spot for EVs (at least until charging stations are ubiquitous). An EV that is taking up a charging station spot without charging (past a certain "grace" period to allow the owner, upon being notified that the charge is complete to physically get to the car and move it) is no better than an ICE vehicle occupying the spot.

And I'm not singling out PHEV drivers here...I would hold BEV drivers, and myself, to that same standard of courtesy.

And if you were in a position where you really NEEDED the charge because you were down so low you didn't have enough range to make it home, then there probably isn't a problem anyway on an L2 charger.

 

[DANandNAN]

There's a very simple solution.

Charge for the charge. Make it somewhere close to the cost of gas. Then those who need the charge will plug in and those who are just wanting a free few miles will be less inclined to use/abuse the charger...

Free charging invites abuse, especially in public areas. Private company do as you wish, they just want the business..

Something to consider is that you're not going to encourage people to buy EV's if the electricity is as expensive as it's gas. So then the EV market will become stagnant which no one here wants.

 

[lpickup]

I was reading that a NC (IIRC) Volt owner's town put in chargers but added a 4 hour time limit to them. That's the solution. No worries about knowledge of which car needs however long. Just a strict 4 hour limit. Really, that's reasonable and makes sense.

Most (but not all) of Raleigh's charging stations to which this rule applies are located in sections of parking decks that have 3 hour limit on their parking, so yes, I agree it reinforces the idea that these charging stations are for opportunity/convenience, not to sit at for 8 hours a day getting your "fuel" at the expense of the city. However, the 3 hour limit only applies during weekday time periods. At night and on weekends I believe you can exceed that limit. However, at those times there are usually not that many people parked in the decks anyway.

 

[lpickup]

Something to consider is that you're not going to encourage people to buy EV's if the electricity is as expensive as it's gas. So then the EV market will become stagnant which no one here wants.

Not necessarily. It will just encourage people to do most of their charging at home, where they should. Well, that statement applies more to BEVs.

 

[mkjayakumar]

There's a very simple solution.

Something to consider is that you're not going to encourage people to buy EV's if the electricity is as expensive as it's gas.

Why not ? Remember the no. of times an EV owner would use a public infrastructure would be far less than an ICE driver using a gas pump. In essence I would think a typical EV onwer would charge 80% of the time at home and the rest using this infrastructure, so paying gas p[rices shouldn't really hurt the savings.

Very similar to eating out .vs. cooking home. I pay $2.00 for a mocho-mucha crap from Starbucks for the convenience of drinking coffee on the road, but most of my coffee consumption is at home or office at probably $0.25 per cup.

 

[davewill]

... An EV that is taking up a charging station spot without charging (past a certain "grace" period to allow the owner, upon being ...

Whatever. :roll:
Dude, I'm not going to purposely bogart the spot, but if I'm charging while at dinner, I'm going to stay parked till I'm done eating. If that ain't sufficient, then this EV thing just isn't going to work out.

 

[mitch672]

Dude, I'm not going to purposely bogart the spot, but if I'm charging while at dinner, I'm going to stay parked till I'm done eating. If that ain't sufficient, then this EV thing just isn't going to work out.

It didn't work out "last time", it took more than 10 years to come back, let's hope for better results this time around.

 

[z0ner]

... An EV that is taking up a charging station spot without charging (past a certain "grace" period to allow the owner, upon being ...

Whatever. :roll:
Dude, I'm not going to purposely bogart the spot, but if I'm charging while at dinner, I'm going to stay parked till I'm done eating. If that ain't sufficient, then this EV thing just isn't going to work out.

I don't know how long it takes you to eat dinner, but if your battery is so full that you would get notified within an hour or so then you shouldn't be hogging up the EVSE anyway.

 

[DANandNAN]

Something to consider is that you're not going to encourage people to buy EV's if the electricity is as expensive as it's gas. So then the EV market will become stagnant which no one here wants.

Not necessarily. It will just encourage people to do most of their charging at home, where they should. Well, that statement applies more to BEVs.

I disagree. One of the reasons we don't have two BEV's and most BEV owners rent/own/lease/or borrow an EREV or a PiP or an ICE is because the infrastructure isn't there in most areas and it's not going to grow without more folks being interested. If there's no way to charge for a reasonable rate there's not going to be the draw of folks to EV's. People already think we EV owners (especially BEV's) are tethered to charging stations and they find that unattractive. How much worse would it be if they saw EV's as tethered to a station and paying the same high prices they could pay using gas?

Sure there's savings at home, but a 60-80 mile range in a BEV isn't enough for most people - at least they don't think it is. So they need to know they can charge up when they're out and about, but if they have to pay a lot in public to station owners then I think most folks will pass on EV's. Well, maybe not EREV's since they can use gas if they've used up their initial charge.

 

[DANandNAN]

Why not ? Remember the no. of times an EV owner would use a public infrastructure would be far less than an ICE driver using a gas pump. In essence I would think a typical EV onwer would charge 80% of the time at home and the rest using this infrastructure, so paying gas p[rices shouldn't really hurt the savings.

Very similar to eating out .vs. cooking home. I pay $2.00 for a mocho-mucha crap from Starbucks for the convenience of drinking coffee on the road, but most of my coffee consumption is at home or office at probably $0.25 per cup.

Yes, but I think most people have it in their heads that they can't make it 60-80 miles using a BEV. Or they're scared about what happens if they need to rush to the hospital (or whatever) and end up Turtled. Whether they can or can't isn't the issue, it's that they don't believe the risk is worth the reward. Volt owners face the same thoughts about the 40 mile range (well, not about being Turtled, but about the possibility of using gas ). 40 miles of EV battery range doesn't seem like enough on a daily basis, even though it is for a lot of owners and the on-board generator is there if we travel further before charging. But, there's still a lot of people out there who have no idea how far they drive on a daily basis - meanwhile EV folks know it well

So what can you do to quash their fears? IMHO, infrastructure that's reasonably priced is the solution for BEV's - and for all us Volt owners who hate burning gas as much as everyone here

 

[DANandNAN]

... An EV that is taking up a charging station spot without charging (past a certain "grace" period to allow the owner, upon being ...

Whatever. :roll:
Dude, I'm not going to purposely bogart the spot, but if I'm charging while at dinner, I'm going to stay parked till I'm done eating. If that ain't sufficient, then this EV thing just isn't going to work out.

I don't know how long it takes you to eat dinner, but if your battery is so full that you would get notified within an hour or so then you shouldn't be hogging up the EVSE anyway.

I don't know if that's really hogging it. I think the grace period for leaving the spot has to be based on it's location. If a movie theater puts them in, it's reasonable (and likely) that the owner will be gone for well over an hour. OTOH, if it's in front of a fast food joint it might be a 10 minute window. And, at the airport it could be weeks. If you're at the mall, the owner could be 10 minutes or they could be an hour. I think we just need a frank 4-hour limit unless the station owner wants to make it longer and we need more chargers.

I'd really like to see Chevy, Nissan, Ford and the rest to team up (or do it individually) and go to restaurants, malls, zoos, museums, city centers and so on and install chargers. Don't wait on the government to do it, just pair up with an EVSE manufacturer and get on it! It's good advertising, a green initiative and will build the infrastructure. The lack of infrastructure is a big reason why we bought a Volt instead of a Leaf, and why we're waiting for the 2013 Leaf and it's 6.6 charger (no DC in the state AFAIK).

 

[davewill]

I don't know how long it takes you to eat dinner, but if your battery is so full that you would get notified within an hour or so then you shouldn't be hogging up the EVSE anyway.

Well, at a really fancy restaurant it could take a couple hours plus who knows how long waiting for a table, and the PHEVs in question don't take much more than a hour to charge from empty. Getting all over PHEV owners because they wouldn't interrupt dinner or a movie is just crazy.

 

[lpickup]

I'm not asking them to go out and move their cars if they are otherwise disposed.

I'm just saying if that's the situation they're in, where it would be inconvenient to move their car in 30 minutes when it's full, then they probably shouldn't take up the spot in the first place (they probably didn't even really need the charge). It's a courtesy thing. And I'm not surprised if people don't agree. It seems that courtesy is pretty rare these days.

 

[Roadburner440]

Just going to put this out there, but Prius drivers are conceited butt holes. It was one of my primary reasons for getting rid of mine. I never have been surrounded by such an arrogant, closed minded group in my life..

That being said, and this coming from the owner of a Volt. PHEV's have NO place at a public charging station that a BEV may need. Especially a car that they claim is so superior to my Volt with its 11 mile range and 50mpg estimate. Their whole point for not buying a Volt is that it got 50mpg.. So fine. They need to drive it on gas. It is their fault for buying the vehicle with inferior range. Let alone spending $6000+ more for a glorified Prius. Only reason they are looking to charge at every opportunity is cause if they don't it isn't any more cost efficient than a normal Prius. The Prius C is far more "cost effective" which is another favorite calculation of theirs.

I agree that once they start charging to use EVSE that a lot of people will go away. I have personally found using RV parks to be quite convenient. Just pack a lunch, and am good to go with Phil's modified charge cord.

 

[mitch672]

I'm not asking them to go out and move their cars if they are otherwise disposed.

I'm just saying if that's the situation they're in, where it would be inconvenient to move their car in 30 minutes when it's full, then they probably shouldn't take up the spot in the first place (they probably didn't even really need the charge). It's a courtesy thing. And I'm not surprised if people don't agree. It seems that courtesy is pretty rare these days.

It's not 30 minutes, it takes 1.5 hours on L2, and it's also more than 11 miles mr ahole Volt driver.
The Volt is crap compared to the PiP, I didn't like how the trunk worked (deck is sunken down, not as good as a Prius), it only seats 4, and has less interior space, and feels much smaller, add to that I couldn't get into the drivers seat easily (has less much less clearance on the drivers door opening).
The ONLY advtage the Volt has is it's 35-50 mile EV range, and that's not much, we are all doing just fine with our PiPs, from a manufacturer who won't decide to recall and crush our cars, or decide they've had enough of making this model..

 

[SanDust]

The whole discussion is misplaced. If you want charging infrastructure businesses are going to need to see the demand for it. The more PIPs that want to charge the more likely we will see more infrastructure. It's not exactly as if Leafs are clogging the highways. Treating allies as enemies is simply not helpful.

 

[SanDust]

The Volt is crap compared to the PiP

Absolutely. And a BMW is crap compared to a PiP as well. No question. I just HATED the trunk in my BMW. :lol:

 

[walterbays]

I think the grace period for leaving the spot has to be based on it's location. If a movie theater puts them in, it's reasonable (and likely) that the owner will be gone for well over an hour. OTOH, if it's in front of a fast food joint it might be a 10 minute window. And, at the airport it could be weeks....

Good point.

It's certainly not always the case that a BEV *needs* charging more than a PHEV. Depending on state of charge and subsequent trip plans either might need it more. Fortunately someone has already developed a technology to distinguish degrees of need: money. Once they start charging $1/hr for electricity you can get at home for $0.50/hr few drivers will top without need. If a station charges $2/hr which would be equivalent to $5/gallon to a PHEV driver you won't see many of them charging there.

As someone noted, charging fees should begin when charging begins and should end when the car is unplugged, irrespective of when charging was complete. Who knows, that might give new life to the charging protocol placard at sites where one EVSE could serve multiple parking spaces. If you're in the theater when your car gets sufficient charge, your placard says it's okay to unplug, and another driver does so, that would save you some money.

 

[coolfilmaker]

I think the grace period for leaving the spot has to be based on it's location. If a movie theater puts them in, it's reasonable (and likely) that the owner will be gone for well over an hour. OTOH, if it's in front of a fast food joint it might be a 10 minute window. And, at the airport it could be weeks....

Good point.

It's certainly not always the case that a BEV *needs* charging more than a PHEV. Depending on state of charge and subsequent trip plans either might need it more. Fortunately someone has already developed a technology to distinguish degrees of need: money. Once they start charging $1/hr for electricity you can get at home for $0.50/hr few drivers will top without need. If a station charges $2/hr which would be equivalent to $5/gallon to a PHEV driver you won't see many of them charging there.

As someone noted, charging fees should begin when charging begins and should end when the car is unplugged, irrespective of when charging was complete. Who knows, that might give new life to the charging protocol placard at sites where one EVSE could serve multiple parking spaces. If you're in the theater when your car gets sufficient charge, your placard says it's okay to unplug, and another driver does so, that would save you some money.

That's throwing out the baby with the bathwater. People don't just randomly drive where ever and then realize they need a charge. They want to be able to increase their range through the use of chargers. No one will do this if it's equivalent to paying $5 a gallon for gas!

 

[harryjpowell]

How in the world can an occasional fee to increase the range of my BEV - making it so I don't need a second ICE vehicle for those rare trips - be bad?

If you need L2 everyday away from home, then the car & technology is not right for you yet...get over it.

I would certainly LOVE to pay a $5 equivalent fee on those occasions and have two leaf's in my garage. Now I must have 1 + 1 ICE. What sense is that?

It would be cheaper that the extra battery like a Tesla....Why must this ev community believe that they are entitled to free charging everywhere..

Strategic fee based L3 is the answer to EV adoption. Not millions of L2 that everyone complains about..