All "Future" battery technology thread

[LTLFTcomposite]

Sounds great... but then all the new battery stories do.

 

[Stoaty]

Moderator: please move to existing vaporware battery thread.

 

[Flashman]

Is there a thread already on the Dual Carbon version?

 

[LTLFTcomposite]

Is there a thread already on the Dual Carbon version?

The intelligentsia prefers that all discussion of possible new battery technologies be sequestered in a single thread.

Meanwhile threads are created left and right by users asking about their unique circumstances like "can I make it to work and back?", "should I get a Leaf?", and "is this a good lease deal?".

 

[smkettner]

Moderator: please move to existing vaporware battery thread.

At least this vaporware seems to be headed for limited production later this year.
About the same as the Lizard Battery and Model X.

 

[DeaneG]

I recall reading around 1970 (Popular Science) that a new sodium-sulfur battery was going to revolutionize things. That should be out pretty soon too!

Someday, in dribs and drabs, we'll get our 2x density/cost improvement.

 

[Nubo]

News Article:
Dual-Carbon Battery: Same Energy Density, Safer, Longer Life Than Lithium-Ion, Says Power Japan Plus.
http://www.greencarreports.com/news...r-life-than-lithium-ion-says-power-japan-plus

A couple of interesting quotes from the article:
"With energy density comparable to lithium-ion, the company claims that its Ryden dual-carbon chemistry can both recharge up to 20 times as fast and deliver more than 4 Volts of power from a single cell."

"In testing, the cell has completed more than 3,000 charge/discharge cycles with virtually no performance degradation, meaning that it could conceivably last the lifetime of a car."

"higher-volume production intended for other markets--including plug-in electric cars--the company will license its technology and consult with existing battery makers to enable them to produce the anode and cathode materials in their own facilities."

Would you like Lithium ions with your non-Lithium-ion battery ? :?

 

[linkim]

The Dual-Carbon Battery sounds like a capacitor to me. It appears from one of the articles I read that they use a pyrolyzed
organic material to form a carbon that is used in the electrodes. I guess we will need to wait to see if the hype turns out to be true.

 

[JRP3]

Is there a thread already on the Dual Carbon version?

The intelligentsia prefers that all discussion of possible new battery technologies be sequestered in a single thread.

A wise move until any of these turn out to be worth more than a few posts of discussion. This latest is interesting but the fact that they don't compare it to the most energy dense and cost effective current chemistry, the Panasonic NCA that Tesla is using, raises the first red flag. NCA chemistry also shows minimal capacity fade to 2000+ cycles, which should be the life of a vehicle and beyond, assuming a 200 mile range pack. Less need for cooling and protection will help increase the pack level density of the new chemistry but I'm not sure even that would raise it to the level of NCA. Charge rate is mostly irrelevant at this point, cables and power delivery become prohibitive at rates much beyond what Tesla is already doing for long range packs.

 

[Stoaty]

At least this vaporware seems to be headed for limited production later this year.
About the same as the Lizard Battery and Model X.

Yup, these are all vaporware that will be in production Real Soon Now (TM).

 

[JRP3]

Don't think I'd include the Model X in that, I remember when people were saying the Roadster was vaporware, and the Model S was vaporware. Model X may be delayed, as were the Roadster and Model S, but I'm quite sure it will arrive.

 

[z0ner]

"The Dual Carbon Battery could give a modern electric vehicle a range of almost 500 kilometers (310 miles)"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OJwZ9uEpJOo&feature=youtu.be" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Interesting to note Kaname Takeya Ph.D., CTO of Power Japan Plus has worked on both Prius and Tesla batteries. If this is even slightly viable it would be the single most improvement in battery tech during the last century.

 

[GetOffYourGas]

"The Dual Carbon Battery could give a modern electric vehicle a range of almost 500 kilometers (310 miles)"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OJwZ9uEpJOo&feature=youtu.be" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Interesting to note Kaname Takeya Ph.D., CTO of Power Japan Plus has worked on both Prius and Tesla batteries. If this is even slightly viable it would be the single most improvement in battery tech during the last century.

I always love seeing numbers like this. Technically, Nissan's battery chemistry could give cars 310 miles of range - just put 4x as many cells into a car and viola. Also don't forget that the Tesla Model S gets almost 310 miles of range (306 miles at 55mph).

 

[LTLFTcomposite]

There's no question batteries are hot right now. You wonder which of these are people who legitimately think they are onto something vs scammers just looking to catch a ride on VCs or other funding sources. We've probably all seen cases where something was a flop but a few well-placed individuals really enriched themselves along the way.

 

[LindsayNB]

The Phinergy/Alcoa Aluminum-Air "battery" looks like a potentially good technology as a range extender. I put battery in quotes because it seems more accurate to describe it as using aluminum as fuel and it isn't electrically rechargeable. From the video it looks like replacing the aluminum cartridges is relatively easy, maybe no bigger deal than getting an oil change. You do have to add water and flush out the electrolyte containing the consumed aluminum so it's not as convenient as just plugging in, but with enough energy storage for 1000 miles, and using the regular lithium battery for most of your power it shouldn't need to be done very often for a lot of typical use patterns. InsideEvs has a couple very negative articles but think Eric has got some misconceptions about how it works. There's a Feb Green Car Congress article http://www.greencarcongress.com/2014/02/20140205-alcoa.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; that seems a little more level. It clearly isn't a miracle battery replacement for current technology but it seems like it could be a good substitute for an ICE range extender.

They've got a working system, backing from Alcoa, and don't appear to be looking for funding which gives them more credibility than most new battery technology announcements. And they're talking about consumer availability in the next year or two.

What's not clear to me is the cost, Eric says $10/mile but I don't know where he got that and I'm pretty sure it isn't correct. At 20miles per plate that would be $200 per plate. The wikipedia page on aluminum-air batteries http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminium%E2%80%93air_battery" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; says the aluminum anode would cost as little $1.10 per kg so I don't see how that squares with such a high cost. The press release claims "The technology allows an energy density that surpasses conventional battery technologies and creates electric vehicles with travel distances, purchase prices and life-cycle costs that are comparable to fossil-fuel cars."

 

[Deleted member 770]

The thing that concerns me about the aluminum air battery is that people might not realize the amount of energy consumed in the process of making that aluminum sheet that they're using up as the battery runs down (that's right - it's not rechargable!). According to this article it takes an average of 15 kWh to produce 1 kg of aluminum (probably significantly less for recycled aluminum). And according to the Green Car Congress article referenced by LindsayNB above, the current battery's energy density is 1.3 kWh/kg (2.0 kWh is what they're shooting for). So while it might be lightweight and high energy density compared to Li-Ion, it's certainly not efficient.

 

[LTLFTcomposite]

^ So 15 kwh in, 1.3 kwh out. Yeah that sucks.
Sure you could use recycled aluminum but that's that much aluminum that isn't available for other things, like stamping Tesla bodies.

 

[Nubo]

The thing that concerns me about the aluminum air battery is that people might not realize the amount of energy consumed in the process of making that aluminum sheet that they're using up as the battery runs down (that's right - it's not rechargable!). According to this article it takes an average of 15 kWh to produce 1 kg of aluminum (probably significantly less for recycled aluminum). And according to the Green Car Congress article referenced by LindsayNB above, the current battery's energy density is 1.3 kWh/kg (2.0 kWh is what they're shooting for). So while it might be lightweight and high energy density compared to Li-Ion, it's certainly not efficient.

Yep, it takes a tremendous amount of electrical energy to separate Aluminum and Oxygen. Which of course is why recombining them yields so much power.

Particularly impressive in the Thermite Reaction (Aluminum powder strips the Oxygen from Iron Oxide, yielding enough heat and molten metal to weld railroad tracks)

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQViDITyIKs[/youtube]

 

[RegGuheert]

"The Dual Carbon Battery could give a modern electric vehicle a range of almost 500 kilometers (310 miles)"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OJwZ9uEpJOo&feature=youtu.be" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Interesting to note Kaname Takeya Ph.D., CTO of Power Japan Plus has worked on both Prius and Tesla batteries. If this is even slightly viable it would be the single most improvement in battery tech during the last century.

This is one of the most interesting battery ideas I have seen in a long time. Being able to grow the materials for both electrodes in cotton fields instead of having to dig up metals from the Earth sounds like a great way to replace wasteful and damaging ethanol production with a land use that should appeal to farmers and actually offers a real benefit to the environment. To do all that and still reduce the cell's series resistance would be a major breakthrough for the environment, IMO.

 

[lkkms2]

z0ner wrote:
"The Dual Carbon Battery could give a modern electric vehicle a range of almost 500 kilometers (310 miles)"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OJwZ9uE" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... e=youtu.be

Interesting to note Kaname Takeya Ph.D., CTO of Power Japan Plus has worked on both Prius and Tesla batteries. If this is even slightly viable it would be the single most improvement in battery tech during the last century."

-----
This is one of the most interesting battery ideas I have seen in a long time. Being able to grow the materials for both electrodes in cotton fields instead of having to drill for oil and pollute the Earth .....