7 manufacturers support J1772 L3 DC Quick chrgr over CHAdeMO

[scottf200]

http://www.akerwade.com/news-release/aker-wade-and-spx-sign-letter-of-intent.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Aker Wade and SPX Sign Letter of Intent

SPX and Aker Wade Collaborate to Fast Charge Electric Vehicles

Advanced Charger Technology Development Addresses EV Range Anxiety for Global Markets

WARREN, MI and CHARLOTTESVILLE, VA, February 3, 2012 – SPX Service Solutions, a business unit of SPX Corporation (NYSE: SPW), and Aker Wade Power Technologies, LLC, announced today the signing of a letter of intent to jointly develop a family of practical EV fast chargers for the global vehicle market.

These new charge stations will utilize an all-in-one connector from SAE that provides Level 1, 2, and DC Fast Charging for any EV, with a power level that permits fast charging. A typical 100-mile range EV with a 25kWhr battery pack can add an additional 50 miles in less than 20 minutes, and deliver a full charge of 100 miles in approximately 40 minutes. The first product, a 30kW dealership-based unit, will be available in North America and Europe and meet SAE and IEC standards.

“DC fast charge infrastructure will reduce range anxiety, which will encourage the more widespread adoption of EVs,” said Tanvir Arfi, president of SPX Service Solutions. “With SPX’s global presence and Aker Wade’s expertise in fast charging, we can offer a solution that will allow dealer networks to play an active role in EV sales and customer service.”

“Aker Wade and SPX have been actively contributing to the development of a common global standard for DC fast charging,” said Duncan Brown, chief executive officer of Aker Wade. “Implementing this standard will allow dealers to invest in DC fast charging infrastructure with confidence.”

The new charge station is designed to be a low-cost, wall-mounted indoor unit aimed initially at vehicle dealerships.
<snip>

 

[amtoro]

Why is it that in the US we are never happy with a standard if it was developed by another country? what a crazy desire to reinvent the wheel every time...

 

[garygid]

Perhaps there are those in the USA who think that they are still in an isolated economy.

None of these build a vehicle that uses QC or L3 of any kind.

Also, the L3 standard is not yet published, as far as I know.

Nissan/Tepco/Chademo should vote/decide to make Chademo an OPEN (royalty-free) Standard NOW, as a mighty step forward in this "standards" battle.

Has the proposed L3 connector been approved (UL Listed) for the HUGE amperage (several hundereds of amps) suggested by the L3 folks?

Can it be unplugged with hundreds of amps flowing?

Is it easy to damage the socket (or anything) by abruptly "lifting" the handle?

Will stealing the L3 cable be even more tempting?

Maybe this L3 standard will be used by trucks?

 

[evnow]

Why is it that in the US we are never happy with a standard if it was developed by another country? what a crazy desire to reinvent the wheel every time...

In this case the idea is to deliberately confuse the market and slow down EV adoption.

 

[edatoakrun]

http://www.akerwade.com/news-release/aker-wade-and-spx-sign-letter-of-intent.html

Aker Wade and SPX Sign Letter of Intent...

WARREN, MI and CHARLOTTESVILLE, VA, February 3, 2012 – SPX Service Solutions, a business unit of SPX Corporation (NYSE: SPW), and Aker Wade Power Technologies, LLC, announced today the signing of a letter of intent to jointly develop a family of practical EV fast chargers for the global vehicle market.

These new charge stations will utilize an all-in-one connector from SAE that provides Level 1, 2, and DC Fast Charging for any EV, with a power level that permits fast charging. A typical 100-mile range EV with a 25kWhr battery pack can add an additional 50 miles in less than 20 minutes, and deliver a full charge of 100 miles in approximately 40 minutes. The first product, a 30kW dealership-based unit, will be available in North America and Europe and meet SAE and IEC standards...

The new charge station is designed to be a low-cost, wall-mounted indoor unit aimed initially at vehicle dealerships.
<snip>

You shouldn't take a press releases of a "letter of intent" such as this one, too seriously.

(Slow) AC and (fast) DC BEV charging are so fundamentally different in application, a proposal for a combined unit like this has little practical application.

If you own and operate a roadside DC charging station, are you going to be happy to see 4 kWh battery pack PHEVs using it to leisurely charge for hours on L2 (or L1?), while much higher–volume, higher paying DC customers are turned away?

And the only reason I can see to have DC charging at dealerships, is if roadside charging is not available.

L2 AC is simply too slow for continuous extended-range driving. It will (once DC is available) likely only continue to be utilized in public applications at locations where drivers and businesses have a common interest in linking an extended stay in a parking space, with the slower charge.

Whatever DC Charging standard emerges, their locations will likely only rarely coincide with those of AC L2s.

 

[garygid]

L2-only EVs, PHEVs, etc. cannot use an L3 machine.

I think: Due to the larger (higher) "key" on the L3 Plug (going fully between the L2-portion and the DC-portion of the Plug), the L3 Plug cannot be plugged into an L2-only Socket (which has a closed keyway on the bottom).

The proposed "US" L2/L3 standard uses two types of sockets:
1. the standard L2 socket we have now (for cars without L3 capability),
OR
2. the newly proposed L3 connector, which looks like a "male" version of the L2 - with two roundish additions "hanging down" on the bottom side.

When charging with L2, only the top part is used, with J1772 L2 "plugs" just like we use now.

When charging from an L3 machine, the whole connector is used by the new "male-looking" L3 plug.

One cannot use the L3 machine or L3 plug to L2-charge a car, so there is no problem with an L2-only car occupying an L3 charger for hours.

 

[edatoakrun]

L2-only EVs, PHEVs, etc. cannot use an L3 machine.

I think: Due to the larger (higher) "key" on the L3 Plug (going fully between the L2-portion and the DC-portion of the Plug), the L3 Plug cannot be plugged into an L2-only Socket (which has a closed keyway on the bottom).

The proposed "US" L2/L3 standard uses two types of sockets:
1. the standard L2 socket we have now (for cars without L3 capability),
OR
2. the newly proposed L3 connector, which looks like a "male" version of the L2 - with two roundish additions "hanging down" on the bottom side.

When charging with L2, only the top part is used, with J1772 L2 "plugs" just like we use now.

When charging from an L3 machine, the whole connector is used by the new "male-looking" L3 plug.

One cannot use the L3 machine or L3 plug to L2-charge a car, so there is no problem with an L2-only car occupying an L3 charger for hours.

Unless they occupy the space(s) adjacent to a combined unit, as proposed above.

The real "fail" in the SAE design, IMO, is that it can't accommodate DC without using the entire ungainly 2 port/plug combination.

In the not-too-distant future, I expect many BEVs may not have on-board AC chargers, and L2/L1 ports at all, and if SAE has it's way, they will still have to use the "once size fits all" combo plug.

 

[scottf200]

L2-only EVs, PHEVs, etc. cannot use an L3 machine.

I think: Due to the larger (higher) "key" on the L3 Plug (going fully between the L2-portion and the DC-portion of the Plug), the L3 Plug cannot be plugged into an L2-only Socket (which has a closed keyway on the bottom).

The proposed "US" L2/L3 standard uses two types of sockets:
1. the standard L2 socket we have now (for cars without L3 capability),
OR
2. the newly proposed L3 connector, which looks like a "male" version of the L2 - with two roundish additions "hanging down" on the bottom side.

When charging with L2, only the top part is used, with J1772 L2 "plugs" just like we use now.

When charging from an L3 machine, the whole connector is used by the new "male-looking" L3 plug.

One cannot use the L3 machine or L3 plug to L2-charge a car, so there is no problem with an L2-only car occupying an L3 charger for hours.

Just to add pictures with your words (from my previous blow up picture of the Spark - who know if it'll really have this combo on it tho).

Large picture:
http://media.gm.com/content/Pages/n...ner/par/download_0/file.res/Spark_Cutaway.jpg

 

[scottf200]

Why is it that in the US we are never happy with a standard if it was developed by another country? what a crazy desire to reinvent the wheel every time...

I was doing a windows search on my PC for an email related to the current autoshow in Chicago and this PDF popped up by chance. Speaks to your question as it was unclear if you read all the background information.

Also note from the Original Ford source there are various countries represented and not just the USA:

SOURCE Ford Motor Company
Quote: DEARBORN, Mich., Oct. 12, 2011 /PRNewswire/ --
Audi, BMW, Daimler, Ford, General Motors, Porsche and Volkswagen agreed to support a harmonized single-port fast charging approach for use on electric vehicles in Europe and the United States

PDF: SAE International
Ground Vehicle Standards
Newsletter
Volume II, Issue 3
July 2011

New SAE quick charge EV connector standard gaining momentum Electric car manufacturers in the U.S. are leaning toward the adoption of a new quick-charge connector standard proposed by SAE International, according to recent reports. This charge format provides for a single, multifunction interface built into the vehicle, rather than two separate plugs. “Automotive companies are lobbying for only one opening for powering the car to allow for cleaner design,” said Craig Childers, a zero-emissions specialist at the California Air Resources Board, as quoted on the All Cars Electric website.

As Jack Pokrzywa, Director of SAE International’s Ground Vehicle Standards program explained to Electric Vehicle Update, “The approach in the U.S., which is also gaining more support in Europe, is to have a combination coupler that will be an AC as well as a DC standard.” The SAE J1772™ combo-coupler charging standard is being developed through a consensus based process with the participation of more than 100 international stakeholders from car manufacturers, electric utilities, EV charging station companies, suppliers, and software companies.

This standard is estimated to be approved and released around the beginning of 2012.

The proposed SAE J1772™ combo-coupler is designed to accommodate AC L1&L2 and DC L1&L2 charging all in a single vehicle inlet. Vehicles using this coupler could be capable of being charged at 12 amp - from a regular 110 VAC wall outlet (1.4kw), up to 80 amp @ 240 VAC (19.2kw) or up to 200 amp – 200 to 450 VDC 90kw DC. Communications between the vehicle and off-board charger as well as communication between the vehicle and smart grid will be done by Power Line Carrier (PLC) technology and requires no extra pins in the coupler. The communications technology also enables other customer focused features such a accessing the vehicle infotainment system to download multimedia files or receive diagnostic information from the vehicle. Other DC L2 charging system proposals require a separate coupler for AC and DC charging as well as unique control interfaces of AC and DC charging. The SAE Combo solution represents an integrated solution to charging allowing for future customer features enabled by communication with the vehicle.

The proposed SAE J1772™ combo coupler design provides interchangeability of the J1772™ AC level 1 and AC level 2 charge connector currently used by OEM’s.

The adaptability of the new J1772™ combo-coupler receptacle to the previous J1772™ design connector provides OEM’s and EVSE suppliers with cost effective options.

 

[walterbays]

Also note from the Original Ford source there are various countries represented and not just the USA:

Well, the Germans - who have always believed the answer is not electricity but diesel oil. Time will tell whether BMW has really had a change of heart and is serious about the ActiveE and Mini E, or whether they will build just a few units to appease the CARB.

Of all the SAE J1772 L3 proponents, none has announced a car which could use it. The closest is GM whose diagram of the Spark as you pointed out appears to include a J1772 L3 connector. Initial volume of the Spark looks like it's only for CARB, and GM could later explain away the teasing diagram as merely an artist's rendering.

But I think it would be great for GM, for the country, and for EV's, if GM were serious about the Spark and quickly ramped up volume production. It's complementary in appeal to the Volt, as a city car. Most people's needs would be met by either the Spark (or the Leaf or the iMiev). But once a customer came into a Chevy dealer, either they'd be urban/suburban drivers with modest and somewhat predictable range needs, and drive away in a Spark; or they'd be suburban/exurban drivers with demanding or somewhat unpredictable range needs, and drive away in a Volt.

Then there's the third possibility, that GM itself hasn't decided whether they're serious about the Spark. If Leaf and iMiev do very well then they crank up the volume and the advertising, and go ahead with the SAE J1772 L3 port. If Leaf and iMiev struggle then they build only as many Sparks as CARB forces them to build, and let the SAE quick charge port remain only on paper to try to frighten people away from Chademo and the Japanese auto makers.

 

[amtoro]

There seems to be one proposed application of the SAE L2/L3 combined plug... coincidentally, at the SAE World Congress... :lol:

http://green.autoblog.com/photos/sa...ound-vehicle-demonstrator-fed/#photo-4987077/

 

[Boomer23]

Apparently the combined SAE charging standard will be on display at EVS26 in LA next week:

http://www.chargedevs.com/content/news-wire/post/global-automakers-demo-combined-charging-system-evs26" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[scottf200]

Apparently the combined SAE charging standard will be on display at EVS26 in LA next week:
http://www.chargedevs.com/content/news-wire/post/global-automakers-demo-combined-charging-system-evs26" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Audi, BMW, Chrysler, Daimler, Ford, General Motors, Porsche and Volkswagen have agreed to support a harmonized single-port fast charging approach – called DC Fast Charging with a Combined Charging System – for use on electric vehicles in Europe and the United States.

Live charging demonstrations will be conducted during the Electric Vehicle Symposium 26 (EVS26) May 6-9.

The combined charging system integrates one-phase AC-charging, fast three-phase AC-charging, DC-charging at home and ultra-fast DC-charging at public stations into one vehicle inlet. This will allow customers to charge at most existing charging stations regardless of power source and may speed more affordable adoption of a standardized infrastructure.

The International Society of Automotive Engineers (SAE) has chosen the Combined Charging System as the fast-charging methodology for a standard that incrementally extends the existing Type 1-based AC charging. The standard is to be officially published this summer. ACEA, the European association of vehicle manufacturers has also selected the Combined Charging System as its AC/DC charging interface for all new vehicle types in Europe beginning in 2017.

The charging system design was based on collaborative reviews and analysis of existing charging strategies, the ergonomics of the connector and preferences of U.S. and European customers. The system was developed for all international vehicle markets and creates a uniform standard with identical electrical systems, charge controllers, package dimensions and safety mechanisms.

The system maximizes capability for integration with future smart grid developments through common broadband communication methods regardless of the global location of the charging system. The combined charging approach will reduce development and infrastructure complexity, improve charging reliability, reduce the total cost-of-ownership for end customers and provide low maintenance costs.

Commercially available combined charging units are projected to be available later this year.

All committed OEMs have vehicles in development which will use the Combined Charging System.

The first vehicles to use this system will reach the market in 2013.

 

[scottf200]

Re: Top half looking different in various pictures:

Some have stated there will be two version of the top half with the bottom being the "same" for DC. European - the IEC 62196 Type 2 and "USA/etc" - the J1772.
See:
IEC_62196-3_.E2.80.93_DC_Charging - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IEC_62196#IEC_62196-3_.E2.80.93_DC_Charging" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
and
Combined_Charging_System - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IEC_62196#Combined_Charging_System" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Combined Charging System
While the target to have only one charging connector has been lost in that the world is split on their main grid system with Japan and North America to choose a single-phase connector on their 100-120/240 Volt grid (Type 1) while the rest of the world including China and Europe is opting for a connector with single-phase 230 Volt and three-phase 400 Volt grid access (Type 2). The SAE and ACEA are trying to avoid the situation for DC charging with a standardization that plans add DC wires to the existing AC connector types such that there is only one "global envelope" that fits all DC charging stations - for Type 2 the new housing is named Combo2.[31]

On the 15th International VDI-Congress of the Association of German Engineers the proposal of a "Combined Charging System" was unveiled on 12. October 2011 in Baden-Baden. Seven car makers (Audi, BMW, Daimler, Ford, General Motors, Porsche and Volkswagen) have agreed to introduce the Combined Charging System in mid-2012.[46][47] This defines a single connector pattern on the vehicle side that offers enough space for a Type 1 or Type 2 connector along with space for a two pin DC connector allowing up to 200 Ampere.

 

[garygid]

The picture/rendering of the proposed "flat-top" L3 connector
appears to be the European Mennekes-compatible plug,
not the USA J1772-L2-compatible plug that we saw earlier.

 

[TEG]

Not sure if this is current or not:

 

[scottf200]

Here is the state of DC QC CHAdeMO charging here in IL per cars.com

http://www.youtube.com/watch?&v=QlzHeU6sEH8" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?&v=QlzHeU6sEH8[/youtube]

 

[edatoakrun]

SAE DC Fast Charging becoming real with REMA announcing UL listed plug and socket

(Mis?) reported here:

http://www.torquenews.com/1075/sae-dc-fast-charging-becoming-real-rema-announcing-ul-listed-plug-and-socket" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

But the photo looks like a retouched version of the one on p 1 of this thread.

I can't seem to find it (I believe only the combo Europlug "project" is shown) at their site.

http://www.rema-shanghai.com/en/ChargePlug.asp" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[DANandNAN]

SAE DC Fast Charging becoming real with REMA announcing UL listed plug and socket

(Mis?) reported here:

http://www.torquenews.com/1075/sae-dc-fast-charging-becoming-real-rema-announcing-ul-listed-plug-and-socket" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

But the photo looks like a retouched version of the one on p 1 of this thread.

I can't seem to find it (I believe only the combo Europlug "project" is shown) at their site.

http://www.rema-shanghai.com/en/ChargePlug.asp" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

More interesting info:

REMA's specs for the plug are that it supports a charge rate up to 90 kilowatts, or up to 600 volts and up to 175 amps.

 

[LEAFfan]

More interesting info from that article:

"It's thought that at least one electric car in 2013 will support the SAE DC Fast Charging system, and some of the charging station manufacturers are promising to support both the CHADEMO (CHAdeMO) and the SAE systems."