2015: Battery Data Report @ 100% Charge

[DaveinOlyWA]

When posting data, can you guys please post date of manufacture?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I remember reading that early 2015's didn't get Lizard packs.

my impression was that late 2014's got lizard packs....

 

[minispeed]

Nov 3 '14: KM - 11 962, Soh - 100%, Charges - 11 QC 256 L1/L2, Gidds - 289, kWh - 22.4, Soc - 96.4%, Hx - 101.94%, Ahr - 64.38
Jan 17 '15: KM - 19 338, Soh - 100%, Charges - 38 QC 453 L1/L2, Gidds - 292, kWh - 22.6, Soc - 97.2%, Hx - 108.32%, Ahr - 64.38
Mar 31 '15: KM - 26 786, Soh - 100%, Charges - 65 QC 647 L1/L2, Gidds - 292, kWh - 22.6, Soc - 97.1%, Hx - 111.18%, Ahr - 64.38
June 25 '15: KM - 36 038, Soh - 100%, Charges - 67 QC 814 L1/L2, Gidds - 292, kWh - 22.6, Soc - 97.4, Hx - 99.62, Ahr - 64.38 / 62.68
Aug 31 '15: KM - 43441, Soh - 99%, Charges - 90 QC 939 L1/L2, Gidds - 291, kWh - 22.6, Soc - 97.5, Hx - 95.40%, Ahr - 61.73 / 60.19
Sep 7 '15: KM - 44171, Soh - 100%, Charges - 91 QC 948 L1/L2, Gidds - 292, kWh - 22.6, Soc - 97.2, Hx - 98.21%, Ahr - 63.90 / 62.14
Sep 25 '15: KM - 46180, Soh - 98%, Charges - 95 QC 980 L1/L2, Gidds - 288, kWh - 22.3, Soc - 97.4, Hx - 98.21%, Ahr - 61.10 / 59.53
Oct 4'15: KM - 47258, Soh - 100%, Charges - 100 QC 1000 L1/L2, Gidds - 291, kWh - 22.6, Soc - 97.1, Hx - 97.02%, Ahr - 62.93 / 61.09

Had some numbers bouncing around this last month but back up to SOH at 100% and 291 Gids on a few readings now. The car is over 30,000 miles now and I must say I wasn't expecting it to be this steady although I wouldn't be shocked if there's some invisible top end to the battery capacity that explains the first year all showing near identical readings.

I'm really starting to think that you have a 30kwh battery in there and you're some tester for Nissan

Ha I wish! A 30kWh pack would be much better for me as in the winter I usually QC 6kW into the pack to ensure that my 10hr L1 at work will get me to 100%.

My usage will be changing though since now that gas is cheaper I'll be driving the prius more and letting my wife take the leaf to use the HOV lanes so she doesn't go on the toll route which is a huge waste of money. So instead of 90 miles and 2-3 charges a day when I work and 55 miles 1 charge a day when I'm off it will now be the 55 miles 5 days a week and 90 miles when I work weekends.

 

[tkdbrusco]

So I'm doing this estimation game trying to figure out how much hidden capacity there is that is being used during initial degradation. Here's some of my assumptions...

1. They are still using a 24kwh pack. My guess is that they aren't lying about this and its not something like 24.5, or 25? But then again you never know.
2. If you do the math at 292 Gids with 22.6 usable kWh, then you have a max Gid amount of 310 if you assume 24kwh pack
3. When I looked at my numbers, I didn't drop below 292 Gids until I reached 93.5% SOH, 95.7 HX and 62 Ahr. This comparison, when you look at SOH reduction, matches up almost exactly with the % difference between 22.6 & 24kwh.
4. If you assume they are still putting actual 24kwh packs into the cars, then this means that they are limiting the pack head space by 6% of total capacity.
5. I'm not sure whether they are eating away at this head space as the battery degrades? My guess is that they can't eat away at all of it, so this leaves a few options, eat into some of it, or lie to us and put a little extra juice into the pack and eat away at that.
6. Let's assume they are eating away at even half of that capacity... Then my current pack (at just shy of 20K miles), has degraded by just shy of 6% at 18months and 20K miles. Since I've only owned the car for 14 months, some of the degradation is due to time.
7. My best guess is that I can expect conservatively 4.5% degradation per year at my driving rate of 16.5K miles a year. This puts me at about 271 max Gids at this time next year (and about 38K miles). At the same rate of degradation, I'm at 258 Gids at 54K miles, and losing a bar somewhere around 60K miles give or take.

 

[minispeed]

So I'm doing this estimation game trying to figure out how much hidden capacity there is that is being used during initial degradation. Here's some of my assumptions...

1. They are still using a 24kwh pack. My guess is that they aren't lying about this and its not something like 24.5, or 25? But then again you never know.
2. If you do the math at 292 Gids with 22.6 usable kWh, then you have a max Gid amount of 310 if you assume 24kwh pack
3. When I looked at my numbers, I didn't drop below 292 Gids until I reached 93.5% SOH, 95.7 HX and 62 Ahr. This comparison, when you look at SOH reduction, matches up almost exactly with the % difference between 22.6 & 24kwh.
4. If you assume they are still putting actual 24kwh packs into the cars, then this means that they are limiting the pack head space by 6% of total capacity.
5. I'm not sure whether they are eating away at this head space as the battery degrades? My guess is that they can't eat away at all of it, so this leaves a few options, eat into some of it, or lie to us and put a little extra juice into the pack and eat away at that.
6. Let's assume they are eating away at even half of that capacity... Then my current pack (at just shy of 20K miles), has degraded by just shy of 6% at 18months and 20K miles. Since I've only owned the car for 14 months, some of the degradation is due to time.
7. My best guess is that I can expect conservatively 4.5% degradation per year at my driving rate of 16.5K miles a year. This puts me at about 271 max Gids at this time next year (and about 38K miles). At the same rate of degradation, I'm at 258 Gids at 54K miles, and losing a bar somewhere around 60K miles give or take.

http://hybridautocenter.com/HAC4/in...4&name=lithium-batteries-and-packs&Itemid=605

Here's a place selling single and multi pack versions of the leaf battery. They list a single as:
lizard cell 64Ah
2013+ as 62Ah
2011-12 as 60Ahr

This gives kWh of the packs as:
lizard pack - 23.3kWh
2013-14 - 22.6kWh
2011-12 - 21.8kWh

If we use 22.6kWh as 292 Gids (I'm not sure exactly how they are calculated but I'm assuming it's directly related to kWh) then it corresponds to:
lizard pack - 301 Gids
2013-14 - 292 Gids
2011-12 - 281 Gids

It wouldn't shock me due to programming that the car spits out 22.6kWh 292Gids as a max like it was programed to do in 2013 which would give about 3% in hidden capacity.

 

[tkdbrusco]

Those numbers seem pretty close to my estimates. Although when they say 23.3kwh, this is likely the amount that is eaten away in order to offset degradation. There's likely another .7kwh that is headspace which will always be reserved so that the battery is never truly 100% charged. So this means that a fresh brand new battery will have 292 usable Gids and 6% headspace. We can then figure that my 2015 S, with roughly 19K miles and max Gids of 283, has probably lost close to 6% of its capacity (3% of headspace, 3% of the original 292). So this probably means that given the age of the pack (mfg 4/14), the length of time I've owned it (16mo) and the amount of miles driven (19K). We are looking at about 4.5% annual degradation based on my use and where I live.

 

[minispeed]

Those numbers seem pretty close to my estimates. Although when they say 23.3kwh, this is likely the amount that is eaten away in order to offset degradation. There's likely another .7kwh that is headspace which will always be reserved so that the battery is never truly 100% charged. So this means that a fresh brand new battery will have 292 usable Gids and 6% headspace. We can then figure that my 2015 S, with roughly 19K miles and max Gids of 283, has probably lost close to 6% of its capacity (3% of headspace, 3% of the original 292). So this probably means that given the age of the pack (mfg 4/14), the length of time I've owned it (16mo) and the amount of miles driven (19K). We are looking at about 4.5% annual degradation based on my use and where I live.

I went through the page a while back, I`m thinking of doing an EV conversion of a classic mini with leaf cells. They reference doing an original test of a new leaf battery, they were selling what sounded like factory surplus 11-12 modules a while back. The 60Ah per module I think comes from their test of what they consider the usable amount of that battery outside of the leaf with either an aftermarket or even no BMS. They actually state it`s a 60Ah cell with 59Ah usable. Although they don`t state it I would assume that they did the same test to get that 64Ah number with the new cells.

If you look at the listings for the packs they list everything based on the original 60Ah, ie half the pack of 24 muddles is listed as 10-11 usable and even though the different years says 60-62-64Ah they all say 10-11kWh usable. The same for the 4kWh nominal packs too. That could just be them playing it safe, being lazyésloppy with the cut and paste or the person posting it online not being as knowledgeable to go change every number.

here`s the report http://hybridautocenter.com/HAC4/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=72&Itemid=631

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

http://hybridautocenter.com/HAC4/in...4&name=lithium-batteries-and-packs&Itemid=605

Here's a place selling single and multi pack versions of the leaf battery. They list a single as:
lizard cell 64Ah
2013+ as 62Ah
2011-12 as 60Ahr

This gives kWh of the packs as:
lizard pack - 23.3kWh
2013-14 - 22.6kWh
2011-12 - 21.8kWh

If we use 22.6kWh as 292 Gids (I'm not sure exactly how they are calculated but I'm assuming it's directly related to kWh) then it corresponds to:
lizard pack - 301 Gids
2013-14 - 292 Gids
2011-12 - 281 Gids

It wouldn't shock me due to programming that the car spits out 22.6kWh 292Gids as a max like it was programed to do in 2013 which would give about 3% in hidden capacity.

interesting. My 2011 had max 281 GIDs, (other stats unknown as car was nearly 2 years old by the time I got LEAF Spy) my 2013 284 GIDs and 22.7 kwh available and the 2015 has 292 GIDs available but same (or nearly so) kwh available.

I have long thought that the total pack capacity had increased incrementally from year to year and considering the derision Nissan received when they went from 24 to 30 Kwh, it was a good idea to not mention that fact so I guess my question is how did you come up with the kwh capacities?

if using 60 ahr and a 400 volt parameter, that does work to 24 kwh so have to guess you are providing "available kwh?"

 

[tivollix]

2015 built in 2015/02

AHr = 58.79
SOH = 94%
Hx = 90.54
1 QC, 282 L2
11650KM (7280 Miles)
276 GID

It is my second 2015 Leaf, the first one (an SV, built in 2014/09) did much better but I only used it in winter. I have been able to drive 120KM at -25C. It seemed like it had an hidden capacity and GID stayed at 292 for the 6000 Miles I drove it.

The new one is not that good....

 

[DNAinaGoodWay]

Down again. Seems similar to comparable car reports I see here.

 

[minispeed]

http://hybridautocenter.com/HAC4/in...4&name=lithium-batteries-and-packs&Itemid=605

Here's a place selling single and multi pack versions of the leaf battery. They list a single as:
lizard cell 64Ah
2013+ as 62Ah
2011-12 as 60Ahr

This gives kWh of the packs as:
lizard pack - 23.3kWh
2013-14 - 22.6kWh
2011-12 - 21.8kWh

If we use 22.6kWh as 292 Gids (I'm not sure exactly how they are calculated but I'm assuming it's directly related to kWh) then it corresponds to:
lizard pack - 301 Gids
2013-14 - 292 Gids
2011-12 - 281 Gids

It wouldn't shock me due to programming that the car spits out 22.6kWh 292Gids as a max like it was programed to do in 2013 which would give about 3% in hidden capacity.

interesting. My 2011 had max 281 GIDs, (other stats unknown as car was nearly 2 years old by the time I got LEAF Spy) my 2013 284 GIDs and 22.7 kwh available and the 2015 has 292 GIDs available but same (or nearly so) kwh available.

I have long thought that the total pack capacity had increased incrementally from year to year and considering the derision Nissan received when they went from 24 to 30 Kwh, it was a good idea to not mention that fact so I guess my question is how did you come up with the kwh capacities?

if using 60 ahr and a 400 volt parameter, that does work to 24 kwh so have to guess you are providing "available kwh?"

That site with the battery tests lists 7.6 volts for each module. I used 60/62/64 ahr * 7.6 v * 48 modules.

Using their numbers of 8.4 volts max for each module to get full (not usable capacity) it would put a 2015 pack at 25.8 kWh.

 

[DaveEV]

That site with the battery tests lists 7.6 volts for each module. I used 60/62/64 ahr * 7.6 v * 48 modules.

Using their numbers of 8.4 volts max for each module to get full (not usable capacity) it would put a 2015 pack at 25.8 kWh.

Capacity is measured using nominal or average voltage, not maximum.

 

[csleaf]

Just bought new last week. Still trying to get a sense of the #'s but these seemingly are low for 100% charge. Does it take awhile to balance out?

Miles: 298
GIDs: 271
kWh: 21.0
SOC: 96.9
SOH: 92
Hx: 88.48
AHr: 57.74
Avg Batt Temp: 63.1

 

[LeafMuranoDriver]

Just bought new last week. Still trying to get a sense of the #'s but these seemingly are low for 100% charge. Does it take awhile to balance out?

Miles: 298
GIDs: 271
kWh: 21.0
SOC: 96.9
SOH: 92
Hx: 88.48
AHr: 57.74
Avg Batt Temp: 63.1

Definitely low for the mileage. What is the MFG date? Where is it located?

 

[csleaf]

Definitely low for the mileage. What is the MFG date? Where is it located?

7/2015
Seattle

 

[DNAinaGoodWay]

How many miles were on it when you got it? Hopefully wasn't left for long stints at full charge in summer at the dealers lot. But there are posts on this forum about the BMS taking a while to learn the pack, you might see the values rise yet. Have you been charging to 100%? Can you post a screen shot of the LeafSpy battery screen?

 

[camasleaf]

Miles 13068
AH4 = 61.12
SOH= 98%
HX = 94.39
22.2 kWh
GID 287
29 QC
461 L2s
MFG Date 06/14

 

[csleaf]

How many miles were on it when you got it? Hopefully wasn't left for long stints at full charge in summer at the dealers lot. But there are posts on this forum about the BMS taking a while to learn the pack, you might see the values rise yet. Have you been charging to 100%? Can you post a screen shot of the LeafSpy battery screen?

It had 8 miles when we bought it. We've charged to 100% twice now. So far 5 DC and 10 Lvl 1/2, but half of those are from the dealer. I'll try and get a screen shot.

 

[DNAinaGoodWay]

How many miles were on it when you got it? Hopefully wasn't left for long stints at full charge in summer at the dealers lot. But there are posts on this forum about the BMS taking a while to learn the pack, you might see the values rise yet. Have you been charging to 100%? Can you post a screen shot of the LeafSpy battery screen?

It had 8 miles when we bought it. We've charged to 100% twice now. So far 5 DC and 10 Lvl 1/2, but half of those are from the dealer. I'll try and get a screen shot.

Half are from the dealer? With 8 miles on the odometer? I don't understand that. Maybe testing might account for a couple. You've probably charged about 5 times at least with 290 miles, maybe 7 if you've charged every day, but only twice to 100%. Are you using L2? Try charging it to 100% every time for a while. It won't hurt anything in your climate and if the BMS is still learning you should see your numbers improve.

 

[csleaf]

Half are from the dealer? With 8 miles on the odometer? I don't understand that. Maybe testing might account for a couple. You've probably charged about 5 times at least with 290 miles, maybe 7 if you've charged every day, but only twice to 100%. Are you using L2? Try charging it to 100% every time for a while. It won't hurt anything in your climate and if the BMS is still learning you should see your numbers improve.

Yeah, the dealer did have it on DC when we picked it up. Including that accounts for 4 times. We haven't charged everyday. Just using L1 at home until the EVSE we ordered arrives. Then we'll try charging to 100% for awhile. Hopefully that brings this up. BMS = battery management system??

 

[Nubo]

Just bought new last week. Still trying to get a sense of the #'s but these seemingly are low for 100% charge. Does it take awhile to balance out?

Miles: 298
GIDs: 271
kWh: 21.0
SOC: 96.9
SOH: 92
Hx: 88.48
AHr: 57.74
Avg Batt Temp: 63.1

Lithium batteries improve with the first 20 or so full cycles. If possible, try running it fairly low and then back to 100% several times, then recheck. Otherwise you can add up partial cycles (e.g., 4 charges from 75% to 100% can be considered 1 full cycle).