2013 LEAF Specs, Pricing, Options Released In Japan

[dgpcolorado]

One downside of faster chargers for the LEAF is the lack of a TMS for the battery: faster charging means extra heat. Even 3.3 kW charging raises the pack temperature noticeably. 6.6 kW is probably ok but going a lot higher might have some negative consequences to battery life. Tesla may be able to get away with 70kW but it would be bad news for a LEAF battery pack. As seems to be the case with QC..

LEAF has all these problems with the battery solely because it doesn't have temperature control.

Charging at 2C (48kW into a 24kW battery) is hardly the problem. Heat generated is.

Yes! Until that problem gets fixed, faster charging just introduces new issues with battery life.

 

[DaveEV]

One downside of faster chargers for the LEAF is the lack of a TMS for the battery: faster charging means extra heat. Even 3.3 kW charging raises the pack temperature noticeably. 6.6 kW is probably ok but going a lot higher might have some negative consequences to battery life.

Easy solution - allow setting of max charge rate from the car like Tesla allows (Tony, does RAV4-EV let you do this?). Make it a simple toggle between 16A and 30A charging, changable via CARWINGs, problem solved. Charge slow and easy at the most efficient speed when you have lots of time - speed it up when you need range fast.

 

[TonyWilliams]

One downside of faster chargers for the LEAF is the lack of a TMS for the battery: faster charging means extra heat. Even 3.3 kW charging raises the pack temperature noticeably. 6.6 kW is probably ok but going a lot higher might have some negative consequences to battery life.

Easy solution - allow setting of max charge rate from the car like Tesla allows (Tony, does RAV4-EV let you do this?). Make it a simple toggle between 16A and 30A charging, changable via CARWINGs, problem solved. Charge slow and easy at the most efficient speed when you have lots of time - speed it up when you need range fast.

No, Rav4 will just draw whatever the EVSE allows up to 40 amps.

The simple toggle could be the 12amp or 16amp 208-240v Panasonic (EVSEupgrade). Plug that in for slow charges overnight, and use 30 amp service for faster service during the day.

When out and about, and only needing slow service, you could use your 12a/16a EVSE connected to any public EVSE with this (I have one with NEMA 14-50):

http://modularevpower.com/J1772_adapters.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[TEG]

I hate waiting for charging too... (Thank goodness we are starting to get some CHAdeMO in my area to solve that.)

Where do live? Interested where chademo's are going next.

I live in Palo Alto, CA.
I commute to the north daily.
There is a Charjit CHAdeMO at Stanford Shopping Center (~Palo Alto).
Palo Alto is in the process of installing 2 more organized by the city.
Menlo Park (next city to the north) has a Blink CHAdeMO at Intuit.
Redwood City (next city past that) has a Blink CHAdeMO at Evernote.
Redwood City also has a Blink CHAdeMO at Silver Springs networks.
Redwood Shores (next city past that) has a Blink CHAdeMO at VW ERL.

So my daily commute takes me within range of 5 CHAdeMOs now...

(On any given day at least one of them is probably working! )

 

[Deleted member 3147]

So can I infer that no longer will there be a standalone "Charger" that can be replaced/upgraded? That starting in 2013 "Charging" and "HV DC to 12 DC Converting" will be handled by the "power delivery module"? So can I also infer that there will be a "3.3 kW power delivery module" that will be standard on the "model S" (or whatever it is referred to in US) and perhaps the model SV and maybe even the model SL as well? And that there will be a "6.6 kW power delivery module" that will be an option on all three or maybe standard on the model SL?

Your first sentence sounds like you may be confused by the common misuse of the term "charger". For everything except Quick Charge there is always a charger built into the car and an EVSE used to get power from the wall to the car. The only thing that is changing is the location (and perhaps capacity) of the charger built into the car. Well, that and what appears to be a cheaper and smaller "trickle charge" EVSE that Nissan gives you with the car. The rest of the question is quite pertinent, and I too have been wondering where the 6.6kW charger will be optional or standard.

Ray

I suspect what he means by a "stand-alone charger" is kind of what we have in the current Leaf: a charger module not integrated with the inverter/motor.

His question is interesting. If the charger is now integrated with the inverter and motor in a stack, how do we get a 6.6KW option? Do they have two different integrated stacks or can they break apart the stack to change the charger portion? Or did that find additional space to put a parallel 3.3KW charger like Phil did?

 

[cwerdna]

I'm not sure if this has been discussed, but is the DTE/GOM still available or is it % SoC only?

Anyone who knows the Leaf and is at least somewhat technical knows the GOM sucks, but I bet you that if it went away, there will be people (w/no prior Leaf history) asking "how many miles do I have left?" :roll: "% state of charge is not helpful in telling me if I can make it..." :roll:

 

[Herm]

If the charger is now integrated with the inverter and motor in a stack, how do we get a 6.6KW option?

Are you sure about this?, I thought only the inverter and booster were integrated into the motor.. not the charger. First time I hear the Leaf is using a DC booster also, that is a major change and it means increased motor efficiency at higher voltages.. mostly at higher RPMs I think.

 

[ydnas7]

the old battery pack
http://techon.nikkeibp.co.jp/article/HONSHI/20110201/189245/?SS=imgview&FD=-1756669096" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

the 2013 battery pack
http://techon.nikkeibp.co.jp/english/NEWS_EN/20121121/252171/?SS=imgview_e&FD=47651877&ad_q" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

quite a few changes there, can you spot them?

(start with counting the bolts, then look at the module cases.)

 

[gergg]

quite a few changes there, can you spot them?

I see the changes, but have no idea what they mean in terms of performance.

 

[adric22]

Are you sure about this?, I thought only the inverter and booster were integrated into the motor.. not the charger. First time I hear the Leaf is using a DC booster also, that is a major change and it means increased motor efficiency at higher voltages.. mostly at higher RPMs I think.

That's good. I've always suspected the Leaf was inefficient at higher speeds (and not just because of extra wind-drag) I have made comments before about our Volt seems to be more efficient at highway speeds, but I got blasted for saying that. The Volt uses is fascinating method for keeping the RPMs lower at highway speed using a 2-motor drive system.

 

[thedak]

My trip to work is all highway.

39 miles round trip.

Volt will easily use a kWh less every time.

 

[TomT]

Judging from where it is on the dash in the image shown, it would appear to be an addition-to rather than an in-place of...

I'm not sure if this has been discussed, but is the DTE/GOM still available or is it % SoC only?

 

[TomT]

I suspect the changes are for streamlining packaging and installation and have no affect on actual battery performance. In the overall scheme of things, they are very minor.

quite a few changes there, can you spot them?

I see the changes, but have no idea what they mean in terms of performance.

 

[edatoakrun]

For me the second biggest issue with the Leaf after the range is the long charge times.

6.6 kWh is better but not future proof. A 6.6 kWh charger is 15 years + out of date. We really need to have more powerful J1772 chargers being installed as well, 10, 20, 30, 40, 50kwh. The standard can support 70amps so let's use it. L2 is so much easier to deploy so fast l2 makes the most sense in the near term. We also need to have cheap L1and 2 chargers that operate at a low output reserved for mostly useless plug ins like the plug in Prius. No point in having weak plug ins like the PIP occupy a 20kwh charger. Until we have faster charging, plug ins will not reach their potential. It takes 10 minutes to fill at the gas station. Refueling speed and convenience is the expectation from car buyers. Tesla gets this. Nissan should copy them and do it cheaper...

There is "No point in having weak plug ins like the PIP occupy a 20kwh charger."

Which is exactly why the current L2 "opportunity charging" model we are currently investing in, IMO. will probably never provide economical and reliable charging for BEV's. The slowest charging vehicles with the least need to charge (small-battery PHEVs) will always tend to "crowd out" the the faster-charging BEV vehicles, making public charging less reliable for those vehicles for which public charging is a necessity.

Most all BEV owners will always do the vast majority of their charging at home using cheap off-peak power. Until battery prices fall and energy density increases dramatically, this means the home charge rate will not need to be faster than 3.3 kW to 6.6 kW, for the vast majority of BEV Drivers, for the foreseeable future.

BEV's only require dedicated high kW public charge sites on an infrequent basis for those trips exceeding their initial charge range. Whether the charge sites are DC or AC is largely irrelevant to the charge rate, but the infrastructure and vehicle costs are likely to be far lower if we put the chargers in fixed locations at charge stations, rather than forcing all BEV owner to lug their own "fast chargers" around with them, for occasional use.

Last month's spy shots showed the USA market "S" plugged into a Chademo:

http://www.greencarreports.com/pictures/1079716_2013-nissan-leaf-spy-shots-of-new-less-expensive-model_gallery-1#100404860" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I hope this indicates the the DC port will be standard on even the "Stripper" 2013 LEAF.

IMO, Nissan understands the concept of the slow at home/fast on the road charging requirements of BEVs.

Exactly what Nissan intends to do to provide the greatest potential improvement in driving a LEAF in 2013 over 2011, which is not the incremental improvements in the car, but the ability to fast-charge on the road at DC stations, is still not clear.

 

[IBELEAF]

Are you sure about this?, I thought only the inverter and booster were integrated into the motor.. not the charger. First time I hear the Leaf is using a DC booster also, that is a major change and it means increased motor efficiency at higher voltages.. mostly at higher RPMs I think.

That's good. I've always suspected the Leaf was inefficient at higher speeds (and not just because of extra wind-drag) I have made comments before about our Volt seems to be more efficient at highway speeds, but I got blasted for saying that. The Volt uses is fascinating method for keeping the RPMs lower at highway speed using a 2-motor drive system.

Exactly my thoughts, without any scientific proof, that Volt is much more efficient at highway speeds.

 

[KJD]

For me the second biggest issue with the Leaf after the range is the long charge times.

6.6 kWh is better but not future proof. A 6.6 kWh charger is 15 years + out of date. We really need to have more powerful J1772 chargers being installed as well, 10, 20, 30, 40, 50kwh. The standard can support 70amps so let's use it. L2 is so much easier to deploy so fast l2 makes the most sense in the near term. We also need to have cheap L1and 2 chargers that operate at a low output reserved for mostly useless plug ins like the plug in Prius. No point in having weak plug ins like the PIP occupy a 20kwh charger. Until we have faster charging, plug ins will not reach their potential. It takes 10 minutes to fill at the gas station. Refueling speed and convenience is the expectation from car buyers. Tesla gets this. Nissan should copy them and do it cheaper...

IMO, Nissan understands the concept of the slow at home/fast on the road charging requirements of BEVs.
Exactly what Nissan intends to do to provide the greatest potential improvement in driving a LEAF in 2013 over 2011, which is not the incremental improvements in the car, but the ability to fast-charge on the road at DC stations, is still not clear.

In this video a Nissan executive says in Japan that they have 400 fast chargers and plan to expand that to 700.
http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1080578_2013-nissan-leaf-electric-car-revealed-in-japanese-trim" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Now if we had 700 fast chargers here in USA the LEAF sales would be much better than they are today. It would appear that at least in Japan "They get it".

 

[JPWhite]

For me the second biggest issue with the Leaf after the range is the long charge times.

6.6 kWh is better but not future proof. A 6.6 kWh charger is 15 years + out of date. We really need to have more powerful J1772 chargers being installed as well, 10, 20, 30, 40, 50kwh. The standard can support 70amps so let's use it. L2 is so much easier to deploy so fast l2 makes the most sense in the near term. We also need to have cheap L1and 2 chargers that operate at a low output reserved for mostly useless plug ins like the plug in Prius. No point in having weak plug ins like the PIP occupy a 20kwh charger. Until we have faster charging, plug ins will not reach their potential. It takes 10 minutes to fill at the gas station. Refueling speed and convenience is the expectation from car buyers. Tesla gets this. Nissan should copy them and do it cheaper...

IMO, Nissan understands the concept of the slow at home/fast on the road charging requirements of BEVs.
Exactly what Nissan intends to do to provide the greatest potential improvement in driving a LEAF in 2013 over 2011, which is not the incremental improvements in the car, but the ability to fast-charge on the road at DC stations, is still not clear.

In this video a Nissan executive says in Japan that they have 400 fast chargers and plan to expand that to 700.
http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1080578_2013-nissan-leaf-electric-car-revealed-in-japanese-trim" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Now if we had 700 fast chargers here in USA the LEAF sales would be much better than they are today. It would appear that at least in Japan "They get it".

Agreed. The only company that 'gets it' here in the US is Tesla.

 

[Ingineer]

First time I hear the Leaf is using a DC booster also, that is a major change and it means increased motor efficiency at higher voltages.. mostly at higher RPMs I think.

Where do you come up with Nissan using this topology? I haven't seen it. I doubt they are using a boost converter. When they mention DC-DC, I'm pretty sure they mean the 400v -> 12V converter.

-Phil

 

[Herm]

I looked around and could not find mention of it anywhere, so no booster or charger integrated into the motor assembly.

 

[Deleted member 3147]

I looked around and could not find mention of it anywhere, so no booster or charger integrated into the motor assembly.

My bad. I'd seen this photo: http://techon.nikkeibp.co.jp/english/NEWS_EN/20121121/252171/?SS=imgview_e&FD=46728356&ad_q and assumed that the charger was in the stack. Looking back, it is not.