2013 LEAF Specs, Pricing, Options Released In Japan

[TonyWilliams]

Not my place. You will have to wait and hear it from the horses mouth.

So Mr Ed. Is making the announcements eh?

What would there be to hear? The 2011-2012 cars are all normal with 124 mile range, and now 2013 with 142 mile range. If a LEAF only goes 59 miles, it's an instrument problem, or the owner has abused the car by driving on freeways or going over 7500 miles per year. Doesn't sound like there's anything to announce.

But, obviously, if Nissan wants to seriously be in the game, I'm confident they can figure it out without "help". They just don't want to pay for it (like offering a real capacity warranty) but they do want to keep selling cars without TMS in Arizona.

That's both ends of the horse.

 

[surfingslovak]

The only point I was disputing was the inclusion of a HV boost converter. I do not think they have done such a thing. I suspect they will simply change the guts of the top module to offer a 6.6kW unit.

I think you are right on the money. That said, I came across Laurent's latest article on plugincars.com this morning. He has a picture of Zoe's drivetrain in there. It appears to be the same arrangement like in the 2013 Leaf, except that the charger seems to be much more capable. Up to to 43 kW, presumably on 3-phase AC power.

In the Renault Zoe, the French brand introduced a new technology it called the Chameleon Charger. The Zoe has one single port for charging, one single charger and one single AC/DC converter, and it accepts any current from 230V 10A 1-phase up to 400V 63A 3-phase (43 kW). Best of all, it's self adaptive.

The driver only needs to plug in, and the car will charge as fast as it can (actually, it's possible to program the process). The 3.3 or 6.6 kW charging limit between the Nissan LEAF and the Ford Focus is totally irrelevant here. The Renault's way is easier for the driver, and it's also considerably cheaper on the infrastructure side. EVSE manufacturers who had hoped to sell thousands of expensive DC chargers in every country hate the Chameleon charger because it ruins all their business plans. But it's real. Two other car manufacturers, Smart and Volvo, have already endorsed fast AC charging, and others should follow soon (at least in Europe).

 

[AP1]

What would there be to hear? The 2011-2012 cars are all normal with 124 mile range, and now 2013 with 142 mile range. If a LEAF only goes 59 miles, it's an instrument problem, or the owner has abused the car by driving on freeways or going over 7500 miles per year. Doesn't sound like there's anything to announce.

But, obviously, if Nissan wants to seriously be in the game, I'm confident they can figure it out without "help". They just don't want to pay for it (like offering a real capacity warranty) but they do want to keep selling cars with TMS in Arizona.

That's both ends of the horse.

Nissan management are terrible people. They have horns and a tail, much different than at other car companies where they all have halos. They should be tarred and feathered and driven out of town, preferably on a Leaf in Phoenix :lol:

 

[ebill3]

Nissan management are terrible people. They have horns and a tail, much different than at other car companies where they all have halos. They should be tarred and feathered and driven out of town, preferably on a Leaf in Phoenix :lol:

Gotta love the 'halos' bit.

 

[TonyWilliams]

What would there be to hear? The 2011-2012 cars are all normal with 124 mile range, and now 2013 with 142 mile range. If a LEAF only goes 59 miles, it's an instrument problem, or the owner has abused the car by driving on freeways or going over 7500 miles per year. Doesn't sound like there's anything to announce.

But, obviously, if Nissan wants to seriously be in the game, I'm confident they can figure it out without "help". They just don't want to pay for it (like offering a real capacity warranty) but they do want to keep selling cars with TMS in Arizona.

That's both ends of the horse.

Nissan management are terrible people. They have horns and a tail, much different than at other car companies where they all have halos. They should be tarred and feathered and driven out of town, preferably on a Leaf in Phoenix :lol:

I'm not sure what this is supposed to say; if all car management is the same, maybe. Except, except every other car company includes a TMS.

 

[KeiJidosha]

The only point I was disputing was the inclusion of a HV boost converter. I do not think they have done such a thing. I suspect they will simply change the guts of the top module to offer a 6.6kW unit.

I think you are right on the money. That said, I came across Laurent's latest article on plugincars.com this morning. He has a picture of Zoe's drivetrain in there. It appears to be the same arrangement like in the 2013 Leaf, except that the charger seems to be much more capable. Up to to 43 kW, presumably on 3-phase AC power.

In the Renault Zoe, the French brand introduced a new technology it called the Chameleon Charger. The Zoe has one single port for charging, one single charger and one single AC/DC converter, and it accepts any current from 230V 10A 1-phase up to 400V 63A 3-phase (43 kW). Best of all, it's self adaptive.

The driver only needs to plug in, and the car will charge as fast as it can (actually, it's possible to program the process). The 3.3 or 6.6 kW charging limit between the Nissan LEAF and the Ford Focus is totally irrelevant here. The Renault's way is easier for the driver, and it's also considerably cheaper on the infrastructure side. EVSE manufacturers who had hoped to sell thousands of expensive DC chargers in every country hate the Chameleon charger because it ruins all their business plans. But it's real. Two other car manufacturers, Smart and Volvo, have already endorsed fast AC charging, and others should follow soon (at least in Europe).

A sensible Nissan would put the Zoe drive stack in the 2013 LEAF. Upgraded charging would require only software. A nice price nibble for the service side at a low internal cost.

 

[surfingslovak]

A sensible Nissan would put the Zoe drive stack in the 2013 LEAF. Upgraded charging would require only software. A nice price nibble for the service side at a low internal cost.

Now we are talking. Yes, absolutely! The Zoe really shines in a few design aspects, and this one is on the top of my list as well. I believe that Renault is going to use batteries from LG Chem in the Zoe. There is no spec sheet to be found for those either, but if the performance we saw from Volts in Phoenix is any guide, these batteries are likely tad more robust than the AESC cells.

That's just an educated guess, of course. Personally, based on what we have seen this summer, I would not put those into a car with no TMS destined to Phoenix. We will see how this will play out eventually, but I believe that LiFePO, lithium titanate or some other lithium chemistry variant would be much more suitable for hot climates.

In response to the humorous comment above, here is a ranking of all EV manufacturers compiled by Pike Research. Although it's likely subjective, and the criteria a bit arbitrary, it might be helpful to step back a minute and contemplate how the field looks to bystanders. Interestingly, Pike seems to think that Chevy had both better execution and strategy when it came to EVs than most other brands, including Nissan. It's curious to see Tesla ranked as a challenger.

So to answer your question, it looks like halos should be put around Renault and Chevy, surprisingly enough.

 

[mkjayakumar]

I'm going to be at Nissan in Japan week after next, and will be sitting with the LEAF product team to discuss a variety of topics. If you have a question you would like me to ask, please let me know.

OE: just curious, what is your relationship with Nissan ?

 

[OrientExpress]

OE: just curious, what is your relationship with Nissan ?

I'm the co-founder of the SF BayLEAFS and through the work we have done representing the SF Bay Area LEAF owners, I have built up a good relationship the Nissan global EV team and advise them on many aspects of the EV business as seen from an unbiased customer POV.

 

[TomT]

They wouldn't have enough range left to make it! :lol:

They should be tarred and feathered and driven out of town, preferably on a Leaf in Phoenix :lol:

 

[mkjayakumar]

Thanks OE. Keep up the good work.

This is what I would want from Nissan: Give me a bare metal EV with much more capacity and TMS, at an affordable price. Lesser cargo space, 4 seater, no GPS, no car wings - acceptable to me as long as we get a solid 100 to 120 mile highway range at 65 mph.

 

[RWatkins]

Thanks OE. Keep up the good work.

This is what I would want from Nissan: Give me a bare metal EV with much more capacity and TMS, at an affordable price. Lesser cargo space, 4 seater, no GPS, no car wings - acceptable to me as long as we get a solid 100 to 120 mile highway range at 65 mph.

Orient Express,

I'm newly registered here after reading various posts the past few months. I am also one who is very interested in driving a Leaf, but find it may be too risky for me at this time, primarily due to the short and sometimes questionable range. I'd lean more to mkjayakumar's priorities of putting affordable price with a solid 100-120 mile highway range (likely work out to about 150 or so for our typical driving of 45-55). I think Nissan miss the fact that many of their most interested current and potential customers live in areas that require more than just a jaunt down the street. Perhaps they don't realize how the size of this country affects the driving needs here. There are many who live more rural with greater distances between normal daily destinations.

We live in North Idaho about 45 miles from Spokane, WA and although we could possibly squeeze by in our daily driving needs, we have to contend with longer distances between destinations, colder climate in winter (requiring energy for heating) and very very few public charging options (essentially about 3 L2 chargers not anywhere near any of our stops. For us, reliability and reasonable range for rural driving is essential.

Thanks for your offer and hope you have a safe trip.

 

[Stanton]

Thanks OE. Keep up the good work.

This is what I would want from Nissan: Give me a bare metal EV with much more capacity and TMS, at an affordable price. Lesser cargo space, 4 seater, no GPS, no car wings - acceptable to me as long as we get a solid 100 to 120 mile highway range at 65 mph.

If they gave you the 120 miles @65 mph, you'd want 150; if they gave you 150, you'd want 200. Buy a Tesla! Oh wait, it's too expensive. Nissan made a 1000 decisions to get to the price point that the masses (read: you and me) could afford, and that was one of them. For example, I prefer some of the amenities that you're willing to give up (you can't please everyone). The fact remains, if you REALLY need to hit the upper end of the range, it can be done--but there are trade-offs: NO 65 mph, NO HVAC, etc. Then again, BEVs aren't for everyone.

 

[KJD]

I'm newly registered here after reading various posts the past few months. I am also one who is very interested in driving a Leaf, but find it may be too risky for me at this time, primarily due to the short and sometimes questionable range. I'd lean more to mkjayakumar's priorities of putting affordable price with a solid 100-120 mile highway range (likely work out to about 150 or so for our typical driving of 45-55). I think Nissan miss the fact that many of their most interested current and potential customers live in areas that require more than just a jaunt down the street. Perhaps they don't realize how the size of this country affects the driving needs here. There are many who live more rural with greater distances between normal daily destinations.

I would think that Nissan understands the situation just fine. The question is how much are you willing to pay for 150 miles of range ?

The RAV4 EV and the Tesla model S base model both fall into this category and they both cost about 50 grand. The LEAF costs about 30 grand, so the choice is yours to make.

 

[adric22]

If they gave you the 120 miles @65 mph, you'd want 150; if they gave you 150, you'd want 200. Buy a Tesla! Oh wait, it's too expensive. Nissan made a 1000 decisions to get to the price point that the masses (read: you and me) could afford, and that was one of them.

Exactly. I've had so many arguments with people that they won't consider an EV until it has 200, 300, or 400 miles of range. I even had one person tell me he needed 1,000 miles. I had to explain that his gasoline car probably doesn't get more than 300 miles, why does he require an EV to do 3 times that much? I like the way Ghosn addressed the issue when people were talking about how they drive 100 miles per day. He flat out said "we don't care." And his argument makes sense. He said there are plenty of people and potential customers who would be happy with the range the vehicle has now. Why not try to sell to that group of people before worrying about the person who drives 100 miles per day? No matter how much range you add, there will always be somebody who will refuse to buy until the range is just a little more. obviously we'd all like to have 400 miles per charge in a car that costs $20,000. But I think we are decades away from that.

 

[mkjayakumar]

120 solid highway miles is the minimum range before Joe six pack would even consider an EV. Why? Because 50 miles is a typical diameter of a big city and you need 100 miles to go one end to the other and get back with may be some miles to spare. Then it truly becomes an intra city car.

We can argue all day that the average US driver only drives 40 miles a day, but that argument is good theoretically but won't do any good to inspire confidence. Heck if that is true then the iMiev should be outselling Teslas.

I for instance cannot take the car even to Arlington, TX which is another suburb in DFW, let alone go to Fort Worth. I am not able to convince my wife to take this to DFW airport which is only 50 miles round trip even after me demonstrating multiple times that it is doable with AC on. If I were to change jobs, forced or otherwise, I have a good chance of getting one within the DFW area but no guarantees that it will be within the Leaf range. Then what am I supposed to do, not take up the job because my Leaf does not have the range ?

All I am saying is Leaf is range constrained - it only has 60 miles of all weather range. Model S is very pricey. And so is Rav4 which is not even available here. I don't care about the bells and whistles of a Model S. Give me a bare bones great Intra city, 120 real miles EV for sub $40K. It is easy to explain and understand why a car is lacking leather, GPS, 5 seats, great cargo space etc.. but no one is going to buy the argument that you have to drive at 35 mph to get to the other end of the city and back.

And then of course we have this battery capacity degradation, which is a another bigger albatross...

 

[JPWhite]

120 solid highway miles is the minimum range before Joe six pack would even consider an EV.

I believe if they could make the car go 100 EPA miles rather than "100 Nissan Marketing Miles" NMM(tm), it would sell a whole lot better. I could make a 100 EPA mile car go 110 on a typical day.

How much is enough when it comes to range? We can never have enough, but a few measly EPA miles more would I believe make a huge difference. Easier said than done at a reasonable cost.

 

[N952JL]

I'm going to be at Nissan in Japan week after next, and will be sitting with the LEAF product team to discuss a variety of topics. If you have a question you would like me to ask, please let me know.
I also wanted to mention that I think everyone will be quite pleased with how Nissan will stand behind battery performance for the coming BEVs in their US portfolio.

I would like to know if they are working on a 36kwh battery pack for the LEAF plus plus model?

For me the 2012 Leaf with a 24kwh battery pack is perfect, however most people want an EV with longer range. If Nissan would have a low cost model with a small battery pack and a more expensive model Leaf with a 36kwh pack, it would be a real game changer.

Have you noticed how many people on this forum have a deposit on a Tesla ?

Have you noticed how many of the Tesla orders are for the 85kwh big pack?

 

[RWatkins]

I'm newly registered here after reading various posts the past few months. I am also one who is very interested in driving a Leaf, but find it may be too risky for me at this time, primarily due to the short and sometimes questionable range. I'd lean more to mkjayakumar's priorities of putting affordable price with a solid 100-120 mile highway range (likely work out to about 150 or so for our typical driving of 45-55). I think Nissan miss the fact that many of their most interested current and potential customers live in areas that require more than just a jaunt down the street. Perhaps they don't realize how the size of this country affects the driving needs here. There are many who live more rural with greater distances between normal daily destinations.

I would think that Nissan understands the situation just fine. The question is how much are you willing to pay for 150 miles of range ?

The RAV4 EV and the Tesla model S base model both fall into this category and they both cost about 50 grand. The LEAF costs about 30 grand, so the choice is yours to make.

I didn't ask for 150 mile range, though it would be nice, just a solid 100-120 mile highway range. Perhaps I should have just said a solid 100 mile range. The problem I believe many of us potential customers face is that the Nissan's 100-mile marketed range although achievable in some cases is not realistic for many situations. We don't have to deal with high temps, and as I said, could probably get by with it if it was a solid range, but with the current lack of charging infrastructure and EPA 73-mile (more accurate?) rating, it's just cutting it too close for comfort. Interestingly you essentially expressed a similar need for a Leaf with a larger pack:

KJD wrote:
OrientExpress wrote:
I'm going to be at Nissan in Japan week after next, and will be sitting with the LEAF product team to discuss a variety of topics. If you have a question you would like me to ask, please let me know.
I also wanted to mention that I think everyone will be quite pleased with how Nissan will stand behind battery performance for the coming BEVs in their US portfolio.

I would like to know if they are working on a 36kwh battery pack for the LEAF plus plus model?

For me the 2012 Leaf with a 24kwh battery pack is perfect, however most people want an EV with longer range. If Nissan would have a low cost model with a small battery pack and a more expensive model Leaf with a 36kwh pack, it would be a real game changer.

I agree "it would be a real game changer." Not just for people like me, but for Nissan. How much do you think it would cost? Seems I've been reading here about around $5000-$6000 for a pack, so I'd think extending it as an OEM option should be equal to or less in cost than Enginer's 4kwh or 8 kwh pack extender kit and be such a better way to go. If Nissan doesn't offer it, that is one option I'd be looking into.

Oh, and thanks for asking OE to bring that up on his visit. I guess I was just trying to add my vote to the total for better solid range.

 

[surfingslovak]

I didn't ask for 150 mile range, though it would be nice, just a solid 100-120 mile highway range.

To corroborate this statement, I switched from the Leaf into the ActiveE mainly for this reason. One of my important use cases is a 90 miles roundtrip to the City. I do this frequently enough, and on a relatively short notice, to feel sufficiently motivated to get an EV with better range. The EPA says that the ActiveE can drive 94 miles on their test cycle, and I can indeed do this trip much more comfortably on one charge now than in the Leaf. An accurate SOC meter, which displays whole percentage points, is a big help too. The car nags a lot less as the SOC gets low. The warning chimes become progressively more frequent, but there are no flashing dashes or a blank range display to make the driver feel extra anxious. That said, I had a Model S reservation, but I cancelled it. My current EV has enough range for my everyday needs, and I felt the Tesla sedan was a bit too large for a daily commuter.