smkettner
Well-known member
Honda only leases the Clarity. Will Toyota actually sell their H vehicle?
AndyH said:Based on that reasoning, EVs are dead.TomT said:The logic is that the Prius ran on gasoline, was refueled like every other gasoline car, and was treated pretty much the same as any other gasoline car. It simply got better gas mileage and emitted somewhat less pollutants. Drivers and owners did not have to readjust to anything to move from an ICE to the Hybrid. In the case of a Hydrogen vehicle, that is not true. The fuel is different, the fueling process is different, and the refueling station that they have to go to is different, not as plentiful, and in a different location. It requires adjustments that were not necessary with a hybrid. And the incremental price increase over and ICE is likely to be higher than that of a hybrid, even a gen 1 hybrid...
Stoaty said:My prediction: By the time they get those hydrogen vehicles out and get some fueling stations, EV batteries will have progressed to the point that the hydrogen vehicles will be DOA.
I'm well aware of the topic of the conversation, thanks. And I stand by my position on your posturing: If H2 is destined to fail because it's so different from ICE and/or HEV, then clearly BEVs are also destined to fail for the same reasons.TomT said:You just love to draw tangential conclusions from unrelated data, don't you? No one was saying that EVs, CNGs, H2s, or Insert-Vehicles-Here were doomed to failure OR destined for greatness. What we WERE discussing is the difference in operational mindset that H2 vehicles require compared to a hybrid...
AndyH said:Based on that reasoning, EVs are dead.TomT said:The logic is that the Prius ran on gasoline, was refueled like every other gasoline car, and was treated pretty much the same as any other gasoline car. It simply got better gas mileage and emitted somewhat less pollutants. Drivers and owners did not have to readjust to anything to move from an ICE to the Hybrid. In the case of a Hydrogen vehicle, that is not true. The fuel is different, the fueling process is different, and the refueling station that they have to go to is different, not as plentiful, and in a different location. It requires adjustments that were not necessary with a hybrid. And the incremental price increase over and ICE is likely to be higher than that of a hybrid, even a gen 1 hybrid...
Maybe some; maybe none. But what if the '100 fueling stations' metric is wrong?Nubo said:So who is going to buy a hydrogen car, when the plan is for 100 fueling stations in the entire state of CA, 10 years from now?
This isn't entirely correct even today, as there is equipment on the market now for producing, storing, and dispensing H2 at home in various quantities.Nubo said:... (some) EVs may (currently) have a range issue. But, they by and large are fueled at home, which is far and away more convenient even than the many THOUSANDS of gasoline stations in the state.
A hydrogen car can't be fueled at home. OR at a gasoline station. You have to travel to one of a select few H2 dispensiaries.
AndyH said:Nothing personal, Tom, but I think you're off the mark on both.
LTLFTcomposite said:How much does it cost to install underground gas tanks and dispenser pumps at a regular gas station? It must be in the 100's of thousands, particularly with all the environmental compliance worries (would you even have that with an H2 station?)
Smidge204 said:Turns out compressing gas to 4000PSI is hard work!
Still if you can get people using them buying the fuel at a price that offsets the cost of delivery, and the traditional 26% of drivers go into the C-store why wouldn't it be viable? The problem is getting enough station owners to think it's worth the investment. Couldn't the state get more bang for it's buck with a subsidy or private/public partnership of some kind with station owners?Smidge204 said:Of course, a $1.5M gas station can have a much greater throughput than a CNG/H2 station of comparable cost!
AndyH said:This isn't entirely correct even today, as there is equipment on the market now for producing, storing, and dispensing H2 at home in various quantities.Nubo said:A hydrogen car can't be fueled at home. OR at a gasoline station. You have to travel to one of a select few H2 dispensiaries.
Consider a home with PV on the roof, a hydrolyzer and fuel cell in the back yard. The fuel cell is a combined heat and power unit for the house and possibly EV. The hydrolyzer and/or storage can feed the car. This type of system is in use in Japan, and has been in operation in New Jersey since 2006.
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