Why would anyone buy a nissan leaf right now???

[salyavin]

While I agree earlier battery issues and rapidgate deters EV fans I am not sure the average car buyer has heard of these. The plus seems to do OK in successive DC fast charges for me so far BTW so rapidgate may be getting solved by the larger number of cells in the plus battery spreading out heat. An EV fan would like them to cool their batteries properly. What can happen though is a first time EV buyer buys an old leaf not understanding battery health and gets turned off on EVs as a whole because of a bad experience which is unfortunate. I think Doug is right on the price people see the MSRP and compare to the Tesla all the time. The person on the street may not understand there is no Tesla dealer let along a dealer discount and there IS a Nissan dealer discount.

 

[scooterapd]

For me, Tesla's pricing was still too unpalatable. When I had my 2014 Jetta Sportswagen TDI, I had some equity for an upgrade. But instead, I used the cash payout for my used 2013 Leaf. I wanted a Tesla but there wasn't one available at the time. Fast forward to 2020 and my Leaf wasn't worth anything, making upgrading to a Tesla too costly an adventure. When a Nissan dealer offered to buy out my car to put me in a 2019 SL+ for the same price as what a $25K car would have costs, it was a no brainer to upgrade.

I'm getting well over the stated range already and it's more than enough juice. It's a nice looking car. It's loaded with great features. For the price, it's probably one of the best cars I've purchases. It's really a fantastic car.

I plan to hold this car for two years and will reassess in 2022. At that time, there will be a whole host of new EV options in the form of small SUV's, sportscars and crossovers from Nissan, VW, Ford, Kia, Hyundai and Chevy. I'm really excited about VW's offerings coming next year.

It's a new world compared to when this post first dropped!

 

[DougWantsALeaf]

Even Ford is with Mach-e is going to move to an invoice price = MSRP price to reduce any potential POS discounts. I think this is the way the world is moving for car sales, and honestly, its more efficient. Dealer's I think won't like to lose price control on high end models where they can charger a premium to MSRP (like GT-R from years ago), but I don't think they get too hurt is the value cars are fixed price. They will just need to find additional ways to differentiate from each other.

That's its own challenge with service revenue reduced with EV's. I think they need to do more retail....and honestly... battery upgrades. For the next 10 years, that could keep them afloat. A certified battery upgrade could give them a product/service with some reasonable margin attached.

 

[danrjones]

What I think a company needs to do is give customers something like an outback / rav4 / crv like vehicle with 400-500 miles of range and good comfortable inside - but without the 0-60 in 2 seconds. And it needs to be 25-30k. This same point was made by several people at forums I've seen for FullyChargedLive. I like the You-tuber's on the panel that were answering questions, but their answer seemed to be "you can buy a used Tesla". In a few years. That's the answer to the middle class, wait a few years to buy a used Tesla, maybe? That might "technically" be an answer but its not going to please the customer who right now can march out and get themselves a brand new rav4 or crv or outback vehicle starting around 25k.

Now I do realize WHY all of the EVs are focused on performance right now. But that will need to change in time.

As to the Leaf, indeed it would be a good vehicle long term for me, if it had about 400 miles more range. I realize for city folks it might be 99% of what they need. And its doing what I got it for, in town only, just fine. But in rural areas with a lot of highway it just doesn't work for long distance. I've done a few weekend runs with it the last two weekends and the highway range is maybe 100 miles. My outback can do at least 4 times that. And my outback cost less, at least before tax incentives. That is the problem. Tesla is a luxury brand to boot, so I just don't see them as the one solving the mass market EV issue I'm describing. Not unless Tesla plans a non luxury line of vehicles?

 

[palmermd]

What I think a company needs to do is give customers something like an outback / rav4 / crv like vehicle with 400-500 miles of range and good comfortable inside - but without the 0-60 in 2 seconds. And it needs to be 25-30k.

I got a good laugh out of this. I'm assuming that it was meant to be funny, since this is clearly an impossible task for any auto manufacturer. the battery alone to get that range out of a vehicle of that profile will cost more than your suggested sales price, and then to add that performance number just makes it all the more funny.

Tesla is working on the pricing target, but sacrificing the performance and range numbers to hit it. They just announced that they will be building a made in china, for the china market, Model 3 with LFP cells that should drop the price by about $10k. That puts their $40k SR+ at about $30k, but only 150 miles range, and some unknown performance number.

At this pricing it is now squarely in the Leaf Plus specifications territory, in every way. it will be interesting to see if they decide to sell these in other markets in the future. I'm not even sure how long it will take to get the china version to market, but I suspect about a year. They first have to get the factory going with the standard Model 3.

 

[Flyct]

I answered this thread 9 months ago just after I traded in my 2018 SV on a 2019 SLPlus so this is an update.

The extra range of the plus opened up the utility of the Leaf beyond what I originally thought. When we are local we charge less that 1/2 as often as we did with our 2018 w40 kWh battery.

We also travel the 3 times a month 120 mile trip to our cabin in the woods without any range Anxiety. I installed a 14-50R 50 amp receptacle at the cabin and use the Nissan supplied EVSE to top off overnight after arriving at the cabin. We are getting 200 miles of real range at 60 mph highway speeds and 240 miles when we stay locally.

It’s our perfect car. No oil changes, inexpensive to drive at 2.5 cents/mile for electric, easy to park, excellent acceleration, love the pro-pilot, easy to get into, it fits my 6’ 250 lb body etc.

I can see this as being the car that I keep the longest. Even factoring 4-5% battery degradation/year, after 8 years I still should be able to make the 120 trip to our cabin with reserves. If the degradation exceeds 4-5% then the 8 yr/ 100k mile warranty would get me a free new battery.

 

[danrjones]

What I think a company needs to do is give customers something like an outback / rav4 / crv like vehicle with 400-500 miles of range and good comfortable inside - but without the 0-60 in 2 seconds. And it needs to be 25-30k.

I got a good laugh out of this. I'm assuming that it was meant to be funny, since this is clearly an impossible task for any auto manufacturer. the battery alone to get that range out of a vehicle of that profile will cost more than your suggested sales price, and then to add that performance number just makes it all the more funny.

Tesla is working on the pricing target, but sacrificing the performance and range numbers to hit it. They just announced that they will be building a made in china, for the china market, Model 3 with LFP cells that should drop the price by about $10k. That puts their $40k SR+ at about $30k, but only 150 miles range, and some unknown performance number.

At this pricing it is now squarely in the Leaf Plus specifications territory, in every way. it will be interesting to see if they decide to sell these in other markets in the future. I'm not even sure how long it will take to get the china version to market, but I suspect about a year. They first have to get the factory going with the standard Model 3.

No, its not a joke. That is what people expect their vehicle to do, and to cost. My point is that that's where the industry needs to GET to. And as Tesla is a luxury brand, we need others to step up to meet the demand for the non luxury segment.

You can't really expect to tell someone who is lower middle class that they EITHER can have an EV with range, or a cheap car.
What they will do is go get an ICE that is both.

I'm talking about the future. Note I said WITHOUT the 0-60. That was part of my point, the average person doesn't need 0-60 in under 7 seconds, but they do need a car that does 400 miles and costs well under 30 grand. Again, talking about the future where an EV can be your everything car not just your commuting car.

 

[DougWantsALeaf]

Leaf continues to be noted as having the highest quality in its segment. If you want very little maintenance...the Leaf if your car...well or a Genesis.

Asimismo, el primer modelo totalmente eléctrico (Nissan LEAF ) ha recibido un premio dentro de los autos compactos.

https://www.infotaller.tv/reparacion/coches-fiables-estadounidenses_0_1413758620.html

 

[Lothsahn]

I sat in a Model 3 the other day. I found that the lack of speedometer behind the steering wheel was a significant drawback. If I was shopping for a new car, I would take it for a test drive and maybe change my mind. However, as of right now, I don't think I'd buy it for that reason alone. Frankly, I want tactile buttons to control the windshield wipers and a speedo dial in the dash. I also found the space somewhat cramped, in particular the armrest in the door.

I think I would prefer a 2020 Leaf SL over a Model 3. However, the Supercharger network might change my mind, as the Leaf would be an around-town car only.

I also sat in the Model S. I *LOVE* the way that car felt, but I don't have $83k. I also would have trouble justifying spending $42k on a speedometer and an armrest. I honestly think for $43k the Leaf SL Plus is quite competitive with the Model 3. Once you factor in the $7500 (which honestly should apply to all EV's equally) and the fact that the Leafs can be found for a heavy discount, the Leaf is far cheaper.

 

[LeftieBiker]

Once you factor in the $7500 (which honestly should apply to all EV's equally)

It no longer applies equally. It's more like $1800 on the Bolt now, IIRC, and Tesla will be losing the full credit soon if they haven't already.

 

[GaleHawkins]

What I think a company needs to do is give customers something like an outback / rav4 / crv like vehicle with 400-500 miles of range and good comfortable inside - but without the 0-60 in 2 seconds. And it needs to be 25-30k. This same point was made by several people at forums I've seen for FullyChargedLive. I like the You-tuber's on the panel that were answering questions, but their answer seemed to be "you can buy a used Tesla". In a few years. That's the answer to the middle class, wait a few years to buy a used Tesla, maybe? That might "technically" be an answer but its not going to please the customer who right now can march out and get themselves a brand new rav4 or crv or outback vehicle starting around 25k.

Now I do realize WHY all of the EVs are focused on performance right now. But that will need to change in time.

As to the Leaf, indeed it would be a good vehicle long term for me, if it had about 400 miles more range. I realize for city folks it might be 99% of what they need. And its doing what I got it for, in town only, just fine. But in rural areas with a lot of highway it just doesn't work for long distance. I've done a few weekend runs with it the last two weekends and the highway range is maybe 100 miles. My outback can do at least 4 times that. And my outback cost less, at least before tax incentives. That is the problem. Tesla is a luxury brand to boot, so I just don't see them as the one solving the mass market EV issue I'm describing. Not unless Tesla plans a non luxury line of vehicles?

Yes the $25-30K price range will have to be met before dealers are going to be selling EV's to the masses. Carlos spent 20 years turning Nissan into a discount brand very successfully. There is the sub $50K Z car but I bet sales volume is below 100K units per year.

https://www.motor1.com/news/391174/nissan-370z-gtr-sales-plummet/

I expect the Ariya will be a good EV if Nissan can buy a better battery source. The real problem I see for the Ariya is not the unreal $45K price that is be talked but that Nissan dealers will just say NO THANK YOU.

My problem today is seeing Nissan factories outside of Japan by 2024 now with Europe fading off of the map for them. What happens in the USA will depend on where Nissan operations are fully funded or not and if not how long can the sales declines be financed before there is no Nissan. Tesla has a problem called Up-sizing. Nissan has the harder problem called Internationally Down-sizing and they have to do it before they run out of Cash.

It was 50 years ago when I was at a Nissan dealership for the first time and fell in love with the company and their vehicles. It hurts to learn what I have learned over the last few months being up close with Nissan when it came to our Leaf. I am not sure the EV thing is caught on in Japan. Look at Toyota and Subaru heading for a brick wall without any EV Regen to stop them in time.

Tesla has mentioned a $15K EV for like the Indian and African markets someday but they will need to get to 10 million battery packs a year first I expect.

 

[jlv]

Once you factor in the $7500 (which honestly should apply to all EV's equally)

It no longer applies equally. It's more like $1800 on the Bolt now, IIRC, and Tesla will be losing the full credit soon if they haven't already.

The federal tax credit ended for Tesla cars at the end of 2019. The Bolt EV has an $1875 federal tax credit until the end of March 2020.

All the EV tax credits should go away. There should be a $7500 (at least) carbon surcharge on any car burning fossil fuels.

 

[johnlocke]

What I think a company needs to do is give customers something like an outback / rav4 / crv like vehicle with 400-500 miles of range and good comfortable inside - but without the 0-60 in 2 seconds. And it needs to be 25-30k. This same point was made by several people at forums I've seen for FullyChargedLive. I like the You-tuber's on the panel that were answering questions, but their answer seemed to be "you can buy a used Tesla". In a few years. That's the answer to the middle class, wait a few years to buy a used Tesla, maybe? That might "technically" be an answer but its not going to please the customer who right now can march out and get themselves a brand new rav4 or crv or outback vehicle starting around 25k.

Now I do realize WHY all of the EVs are focused on performance right now. But that will need to change in time.

As to the Leaf, indeed it would be a good vehicle long term for me, if it had about 400 miles more range. I realize for city folks it might be 99% of what they need. And its doing what I got it for, in town only, just fine. But in rural areas with a lot of highway it just doesn't work for long distance. I've done a few weekend runs with it the last two weekends and the highway range is maybe 100 miles. My outback can do at least 4 times that. And my outback cost less, at least before tax incentives. That is the problem. Tesla is a luxury brand to boot, so I just don't see them as the one solving the mass market EV issue I'm describing. Not unless Tesla plans a non luxury line of vehicles?

Yes the $25-30K price range will have to be met before dealers are going to be selling EV's to the masses. Carlos spent 20 years turning Nissan into a discount brand very successfully. There is the sub $50K Z car but I bet sales volume is below 100K units per year.

https://www.motor1.com/news/391174/nissan-370z-gtr-sales-plummet/

I expect the Ariya will be a good EV if Nissan can buy a better battery source. The real problem I see for the Ariya is not the unreal $45K price that is be talked but that Nissan dealers will just say NO THANK YOU.

My problem today is seeing Nissan factories outside of Japan by 2024 now with Europe fading off of the map for them. What happens in the USA will depend on where Nissan operations are fully funded or not and if not how long can the sales declines be financed before there is no Nissan. Tesla has a problem called Up-sizing. Nissan has the harder problem called Internationally Down-sizing and they have to do it before they run out of Cash.

It was 50 years ago when I was at a Nissan dealership for the first time and fell in love with the company and their vehicles. It hurts to learn what I have learned over the last few months being up close with Nissan when it came to our Leaf. I am not sure the EV thing is caught on in Japan. Look at Toyota and Subaru heading for a brick wall without any EV Regen to stop them in time.

Tesla has mentioned a $15K EV for like the Indian and African markets someday but they will need to get to 10 million battery packs a year first I expect.

Tesla is also talking about a $25K car for the Chinese market. 150 mile range, so probably a 35-40 KWH LFP pack to bring down the cost.

 

[DougWantsALeaf]

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.torquenews.com/9411/ev-granddaddy-nissan-leaf-takes-tesla-and-has-some-advantages/amp

Goldilocks

 

[GaleHawkins]

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.torquenews.com/9411/ev-granddaddy-nissan-leaf-takes-tesla-and-has-some-advantages/amp

Goldilocks

" It’s not as fast or as high-tech as a Tesla. It’s not as cute as a Kia Soul EV nor as roomy as a Niro. "

Ok I am interested in an EV and read the Leaf is not as fast or high-tech as a Tesla that is know to be the world's most desired EV even by Grandma. Then I read it is not cute or roomy as new EV's from Korea.

Why would I read the rest of the article that was kind to the Leaf? Orphan EV's will be scattered around the world one day. Today just do not know their names yet.

 

[DougWantsALeaf]

https://www.electrive.com/2020/02/27/kia-prioritises-europe-over-the-us-in-the-face-of-battery-trouble/

Well, it continued to look like Leaf, Bolt, and M3 are our only real sub 50K choices in the Midwest. Sub 35K it’s only Bolt and Leaf (post discounts).

 

[Anonymous]

https://www.electrive.com/2020/02/27/kia-prioritises-europe-over-the-us-in-the-face-of-battery-trouble/

Well, it continued to look like Leaf, Bolt, and M3 are our only real sub 50K choices in the Midwest. Sub 35K it’s only Bolt and Leaf (post discounts).

What a shame. The Niro EV is a fantastically efficient car. I'm sure they'll be back in full swing in a few years.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

https://www.electrive.com/2020/02/27/kia-prioritises-europe-over-the-us-in-the-face-of-battery-trouble/

Well, it continued to look like Leaf, Bolt, and M3 are our only real sub 50K choices in the Midwest. Sub 35K it’s only Bolt and Leaf (post discounts).

What a shame. The Niro EV is a fantastically efficient car. I'm sure they'll be back in full swing in a few years.

This was announced MONTHS ago. I like how everyone is treating it like new news...

 

[Anonymous]

https://www.electrive.com/2020/02/27/kia-prioritises-europe-over-the-us-in-the-face-of-battery-trouble/

Well, it continued to look like Leaf, Bolt, and M3 are our only real sub 50K choices in the Midwest. Sub 35K it’s only Bolt and Leaf (post discounts).

What a shame. The Niro EV is a fantastically efficient car. I'm sure they'll be back in full swing in a few years.

This was announced MONTHS ago. I like how everyone is treating it like new news...

Sometimes it takes a while for news to propagate.

 

[DougWantsALeaf]

Norway has the eTron continuing to sell like hotcakes.

Feb:
ETron 1117
Golf. 738
Leaf. 581

Will be curious to see if M3 re-emerges next month.