What is the demand level for Leaf now ?

[thankyouOB]

What Phil said, and noting that I always tell folks considering solar that if they are calculating payback period as the key decision factor, they are asking the wrong question.
It makes me feel good to know I have solar and am setting an example, and not polluting the air by burning gasoline everywhere I go. the feds and my local utility make it very affordable and where else can you get 7% return on your money tax free?
So when a neighbor, who fancies himself an aging 60s activist, told me it "doesnt pencil out for him" (and he is on a 174k city pension), I told him: "It pencils out for the earth."
Oh, and I dont like going to war to protect our oil supplies or scrumming the earth (exxon valdez, tar sands extraction, BP deepwater blowout, to name a few more extreme examples) to extract crude to go to the grocery, take the kids to soccer or get to work.

I do tip my hat to the folks in colder climes who are doing the Leaf. For me, in Coastal SoCal, it was really a no brainer. The Leaf runs like a dream and i just feel good about it; add to that the solar pays for the charging 10 months a year, and how can I not say to everyone around here: JUST DO IT.

The car aint that expensive; it cost me 20k plus tax.


Zarwin,

Hate to say it, but if I were you I would certainly not trade in a 2010 Prius for a Leaf. I happen to have both a 2010 Prius and just got a 2012 Leaf, now the wife drives the Prius and I the Leaf. Before that I drove the Prius and she drove a rolling junkyard. .

how come your wife gets the crappy, er, second car all the time?

 

[mitch672]

Hate to say it, but if I were you I would certainly not trade in a 2010 Prius for a Leaf. I happen to have both a 2010 Prius and just got a 2012 Leaf, now the wife drives the Prius and I the Leaf. Before that I drove the Prius and she drove a rolling junkyard. .

how come your wife gets the crappy, er, second car all the time?

Ever heard the expression "Happy wife, happy Life"
She might have some range anxiety issues, and not be comfortable with a BEV quite yet...

 

[abasile]

Thats all well and good for California, Florida, and other "warm/temperate" areas of the country, in the "cold weather" Northern and Northeast states, we have issues with battery pack capacity reduction (due to low tempatures), usage of the cabin heater (further reducing range). I have none of these issues with my 2 year old 2010 Prius, so its more than just wanting to "support" the EV movement, which is obvious I do, since I signed up on 4/20/2010, and have been waiting nearly 2 years. I just think after reading about all of the cold weather related issues, perhaps waiting for a Tesla Model S 240 mile pack version, with a larger, thermaly managed battery pack would probably be a better choice for me in the Northeast, rather than buying the very fist BEV availble (which I gladly would have done, had nearly 2 years not passed, and I've had considerably more time to ponder this decision). I am not married, and already have 2 vehicles, the 2010 Prius, and a 1994 Suburban that gets 12MPG I plow the 200' driveway and parking lot with.. adding a third vehicle is out of the question, using the 94 Suburban that gets 12MPG as a backup to the Leaf is possible, but that has over 200K miles on it, and I'd rather not use it for anything other than plowing... A 2012 Leaf cannot replace my Prius, so I'm probably just going to wait it out for a few years.

I'm sure you've thought of this, but given a desire for a one-car solution without range-related compromises, perhaps a Chevy Volt would be the best choice if the wait for the Tesla S proves to be too long.

That said, even though we live high up in the mountains, my wife and I have come to the previously-unanticipated conclusion that the LEAF could serve as our only car. My in-laws have been the ones driving the Prius, our AWD car has to be plugged into a 12 V battery tender due to dis-use, and we haven't been buying gasoline. We've learned to make the LEAF work for us, even in the cold. Of course, we've had to make compromises at times. (For us, the Volt doesn't have enough EV range or enough seating.)

 

[thankyouOB]

Hate to say it, but if I were you I would certainly not trade in a 2010 Prius for a Leaf. I happen to have both a 2010 Prius and just got a 2012 Leaf, now the wife drives the Prius and I the Leaf. Before that I drove the Prius and she drove a rolling junkyard. .

how come your wife gets the crappy, er, second car all the time?

Ever heard the expression "Happy wife, happy Life"
She might have some range anxiety issues, and not be comfortable with a BEV quite yet...

yes, when mama's happy, everybody's happy, but,
UMM, before that she drove the "rolling junkyard" and he drove the Leaf!

 

[essaunders]

For me, I have a leaf and a PiP on order. I intend to orphan one of them. I'm replacing a 12 year old Subaru. The other car in the family is a 2007 Prius.

The leaf would fit my driving pattern well, with only small consideration to cold-induced range reductions. There are only a very few cases that I would feel slight range pressure - but hopefully public (or private) charging will become more available. I don't think my wife would be happy with the leaf as her primary car.

The PiP would, at least for three seasons, probably allow my main commute to be fully EV, but I'm right at the limit - 15 miles. It would probably support my wife's driving patterns better. She does several sub 15 mile trips during the day and she could recharge during the day (no affordable TOU here in NH)
So, I'd likely inherit the 07 Prius for my commute

I think the PiP is a less bold and less risky choice. It offers less pure EV - and there is still uncertainty as to how exactly it will work- especially at the EV limits. Plus, I haven't had a chance to drive one yet!

The Leaf would be pure EV (unless I manage to pilfer a certain capstone trailer) and I would get to drive it. I guess I would like a 6kw charger for day trips into Boston, but a dc quick charge would meet that same need. Slightly longer range, especially in the winter would be nice, but not really necessary.


Both options aren't perfect so the choice isn't easy.

 

[GaslessInSeattle]

Mitch, I feel a little sorry for folks like you who are having to make the decision to purchase in the middle of the first major winter adaptation phase. I would be seriously reconsidering, like you, if all I had to go on was stories second hand on a forum like this about cold whether range issues. I can say after taking a couple months to try and figure out the best cold whether protocol, that how I felt at the onset vs how I feel now is worlds apart and I believe as time goes by, more folks will learn to make it work for them. I have zero reservations about buying this car but I do admit that winter time driving is frustrating unless you shift away from ICE habits. The approach I've adopted seems to get the battery up to temperature and the cabin nice and toasty. When I say that I turn CC off, I'm not saying that I am cold, far from it. The preheating mechanism in the car is so effective you can preheat the cabin enough that you don't need to use CC while driving for quite a while. I can tell you that I used to freeze in my ice cars waiting for them to warm up initially and that aside from being a necessity, the preheating option in the Leaf is a substantial luxury, offering far superior comfort. Now that I charge to 80% the night before, preheat extensively during top off to 100% in the morning, I'm seeing the battery temp gauge go from 4 bars to 5 and am able to be very warm and comfortable for all but the longest drives before having to turn on climate control. My MPkW on the dash is remarkably close to summer time driving, even in the 20's. I'm still seeing a 75- 85 mile range with highway driving. At first I was watching with horror as my range plummeted. my car was damp, fogged up at the drop of a hat, required power defrost, which made the air cold, requiring substantial heating... I projected at that rate that I'd be seeing a range of 45 miles or so in dead winter. Don't be fooled, getting good range in the winter does not require wearing a sweater or freezing, it requires some substantial change in habits yes, but it's a great car, a lot of fun to drive and quite comfortable to be in even in the cold. That $1,000 a year you are spending on your prius in gas will be more like $350 in electricity in the Leaf and it will be domestic!

You can get a very warped sense of what it's like to own this car by reading all the belly aching on this forum.

Hate to say it, but if I were you I would certainly not trade in a 2010 Prius for a Leaf. I happen to have both a 2010 Prius and just got a 2012 Leaf, now the wife drives the Prius and I the Leaf. Before that I drove the Prius and she drove a rolling junkyard. .

how come your wife gets the crappy, er, second car all the time?

Ever heard the expression "Happy wife, happy Life"
She might have some range anxiety issues, and not be comfortable with a BEV quite yet...

 

[adric22]

I think the PiP is a less bold and less risky choice. It offers less pure EV - and there is still uncertainty as to how exactly it will work- especially at the EV limits. Plus, I haven't had a chance to drive one yet!

I would have highly considered a PiP if it had been available in Texas at the time I bought my Leaf (nearly a year ago). I am sure the 15-mile EV range would have handled all of my daily driving needs. I drive about 10 miles per day for work, and a few times per week I will drive 10 to 20 miles in the evening. I imagine I'd be driving 95% or more on EV. maybe even 100% if I wanted to always wait for a recharge in the evenings.

 

[dgpcolorado]

My reasons for buying a LEAF are the same as Phil's: to support the EV movement and try to get off oil. And Nissan gambled $5 billion, according to estimates I've read, so I'd like to support them in the hope that their EVs do eventually catch on and become mainstream.

The idea that any new car can be cost-effective strikes me as strange. If lowest cost transportation was the goal I'd buy a relatively fuel efficient used car. Or move back to the big city and use public transportation.

As for winter and serious mountain driving range, the LEAF is turning out better than I anticipated and makes longer trips with range to spare. And I doubt that very many others here make 56 to 70 mile grocery shopping trips, as I do.

The fact that the LEAF is more fun to drive than any car I've owned before is an added bonus.

 

[abasile]

As for winter and serious mountain driving range, the LEAF is turning out better than I anticipated and makes longer trips with range to spare. And I doubt that very many others here make 56 to 70 mile grocery shopping trips, as I do.

Distance-wise, you've got us beat. Our more or less weekly runs to Trader Joes are only about 46 miles round trip, albeit with a 5000' drop on the way there, and a 5000' climb to return home.

Regarding the Plug-in Prius versus the LEAF, if a buyer is on the fence, just try driving both, and give them both a workout. I think I can guess which car you'll prefer.

 

[habu]

If I read how scared some people were to buy a Leaf before I bought mine I might have wondered what I was getting into. However the test drive and my desire to stop sending money to OPEC countries was enough to motivate me to buy the car.

I have had it 4 months now. I live in Toronto. I drive it every day. It has more than 6000 trouble free km on the clock. I preheat it in the morning now that it is cold (minus 15 C some days) and it is toasty and warm as I drive it around each day. The battery heat is always 4 bars when I start out and does not drop even on cold days. The range is still similar to what I had in the fall. I don't care what gas costs anymore. The only time I visit a gas station is to get a car wash. I recently spent over $2,000 getting the front end serviced on my F150 truck my Leaf will never require such repairs as it has much fewer parts and no ICE with all its moving parts and fluids. I am saving about $100 a week on fuel. My electricity bill hardly went up as the car charges at night when rates are low. I don't pay road taxes that are in the cost of gasoline which would bother me a bit except that road taxes are no longer used to fund roads and just go into the general tax revenue.

I love my leaf. If you are afraid of your shadow go and buy a Prius or some crappy 15 year old minivan and brag about how you are saving more money than me because you only paid $500 for it and can use the $30,000 you saved on gas and repairs. I am driving a brand new Leaf and I love to drive it. There is no price you can put on that.

 

[TangoKilo]

If I read how scared some people were to buy a Leaf before I bought mine I might have wondered what I was getting into. However the test drive and my desire to stop sending money to OPEC countries was enough to motivate me to buy the car.

I have had it 4 months now. I live in Toronto. I drive it every day. It has more than 6000 trouble free km on the clock. I preheat it in the morning now that it is cold (minus 15 C some days) and it is toasty and warm as I drive it around each day. The battery heat is always 4 bars when I start out and does not drop even on cold days. The range is still similar to what I had in the fall. I don't care what gas costs anymore. The only time I visit a gas station is to get a car wash. I recently spent over $2,000 getting the front end serviced on my F150 truck my Leaf will never require such repairs as it has much fewer parts and no ICE with all its moving parts and fluids. I am saving about $100 a week on fuel. My electricity bill hardly went up as the car charges at night when rates are low. I don't pay road taxes that are in the cost of gasoline which would bother me a bit except that road taxes are no longer used to fund roads and just go into the general tax revenue.

I love my leaf. If you are afraid of your shadow go and buy a Prius or some crappy 15 year old minivan and brag about how you are saving more money than me because you only paid $500 for it and can use the $30,000 you saved on gas and repairs. I am driving a brand new Leaf and I love to drive it. There is no price you can put on that.

+1

 

[KJD]

I love my leaf. If you are afraid of your shadow go and buy a Prius or some crappy 15 year old minivan and brag about how you are saving more money than me because you only paid $500 for it and can use the $30,000 you saved on gas and repairs. I am driving a brand new Leaf and I love to drive it. There is no price you can put on that.

Yes I agree with this 100%. The fact that I am spending my money on something other than OPEC oil enough reward for me to put up with the shorter range as compared to a hybrid. The range on the Leaf is also much better than the EV I used to drive every day.

http://www.evalbum.com/3175" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

When I hear people on this list complain about things like the heater or lack of winter range, I just want to say if you can build something better go ahead and try. It is a lot harder than you think. If you can find a better built car than the Leaf buy it. I am very happy with my Leaf.

As for the original question about what is the demand for the Leaf, we will not really know until every Nissan dealer has several in stock and ready to sell to whoever walks through the door.

KJD

 

[redLEAF]

Well, as to the main topic, if used ones being sold on Carmax is any indication they only show two nationwide; both white '11 SL models with 7K miles, one in Houston for $30,998 and another in San Diego for $32,998 as compared to only a single Volt nationwide so still limited supplies outside of a Nissan dealer. I wonder if these were dealer demo's ... somewhat takes into account the fed tax credit but not any state/local ones; as someone had mentioned a few used '11's going for less than this it's interesting we would see these but after all the LEAF is into it's second (although still limited) year.

 

[Train]

They list one Leaf as having 4 cylinders and one having two cylinders.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

I spend less than $1,000/year on gasoline (Driving 15K miles/year, Prius gets nearly 50mpg most of the time)

and you expect that to continue? what you pay for filter, oil, etc? ok forget that. a true cost analysis between the two is very unfair. simply too many items to consider on the one end.

Hate to say it, but if I were you I would certainly not trade in a 2010 Prius for a Leaf. I happen to have both a 2010 Prius and just got a 2012 Leaf, now the wife drives the Prius and I the Leaf. Before that I drove the Prius and she drove a rolling junkyard. The Leaf is an amazingly fun car that I look forward to driving every day, much more than the Prius, but not worth the economic sacrifice to trade one for the other. Even losing the $7500 tax credit by holding out a few years would probably be the better choice.

well, i sold a 2006 Prius that only had 54,000 miles on it. (SO's previous car literally fell apart on the freeway one day)

but Mitch; you are fully aware waaaaay before the winter range issues were discussed that only a very very small percentage of people could make the Leaf work as a single car. i am surprised that this is the case for you. i had assumed you needed at least two cars and the Prius would be your 2nd. i also paid cash for my 2010, now i only have a package 4 so not as valuable as yours but i was getting unsolicted offers of 20-24,000 for mine when trying to sell the 2006. if i had taken that along with the fed tax credit and sales tax waiver, i would have gotten my Leaf for free so your math is very questionable to me.

it becomes completely untenable for me when you mention a Tesla? for $60,000 or more? (probably MUCH more) you talk about ROI then bring up an overpriced luxury car?

but i do understand your decision. i would not have bought a Leaf if it were to be my only car. in fact, i bought the Leaf with the fallback plan of keeping Both Priuses and the Leaf and that is what i did for 4-5 months but got tired of going out to idle the Prius twice a week to maintain the stupid 12 volt battery because it never left the driveway one single time.

which brings me to the Prius; i also have a 2010 Prius but have to have 2 cars. i parked the Leaf a dozen times in the year i have had my Leaf, to take the Prius. 8 of those times i could have EASILY made it with QC (could have done a half dozen by being conservative, but other passengers passed on the option) so i am now down to 4 trips last year that the Leaf could not do without multiple QC's. (Salem was 2 of the trips along with Portland, both of which will be easily reachable via QC but would require 3 charges to get there and 3 to get back which means i would do it on a lark but gotta use the Prius for something ya know?)

so real stats

trips much more convenient to take Prius; 4 (all but one could be done on QC under current proposed QC network from State)

trips using Prius where QC could have made trip convenient; 8. 6 of them would need 1 QC. (3 of the trips were over nighters with L1 charging available)

trips that "could" have been done with Leaf but werent; 6. these trips would have stretched the range of the Leaf. i was willing to try it, but SO pitched too much of a bitch and it was "pick your battles" so i declined. (it was Summer so even if we did have to walk at least the weather was nice!!)


but now all this seems to be a compromise to some. but i see it as change. a required change. it is no longer optional to conserve, live cleaner, etc. its not a fad anymore, a curiosity. it is something that if not done, we will have major detrimental events to deal with including a huge reduction in our children's chance to enjoy the World as we have enjoyed it.

is all that risk really worth a few thousand? or do you feel your individual contribution wont make a difference so to Hell with it? it is a tough choice. its not a cheap choice but the sooner we realize that there are no cheap and right choices the better off we are.

we have caused a lot of pain for Mother Earth. fixing that pain cannot happen without a lot of work and compromise on our end. there is no free lunch