Volt Test Drive in Phoenix

[cyellen]

Chevy had a test drive event at Midway Chevrolet in Phoenix yesterday afternoon, so I tooled over in my Leaf to check it out. There has been much said about the car here (and elsewhere), but I have to say that it was really a delight to drive. It is super solid, comfortable, luxurious and many things that the Leaf is not (don't rip me over that comment, I understand the irony...). Say what you will about the drive system, the tech in the car is wonderfully slick and I was amazed at all the room inside when you put the back seats down. It won't seat 5 like the Leaf (well, 2 + 3 smaller people), but you could easily get a ton of stuff in that hatch if you needed to.

That being said - woaaaa was it expensive. There are 7 cars on the one lot I visited and two of them were marked up $5000 by the dealer (not sure why they weren't all marked up, but I'll never understand the business of selling cars...). It'll be interesting to see how long they sit on the lot.

Considering the long line for Leafs, it is a wonder that they were just sitting there and anyone could walk up and buy one.

Anyhow...just thought I would share. Personally, I think that any version of another EV on the road is a good thing, not a bad one...

ps: on the way home from the dealer, another Leaf pulled up alongside me with her "Zero Emission" sticker proudly announcing her arrival! We chatted for a second and then she very inefficiently blasted off the line leaving me in the dust.

 

[EdmondLeaf]

That being said - woaaaa was it expensive. There are 7 cars on the one lot I visited and two of them were marked up $5000 by the dealer (not sure why they weren't all marked up, but I'll never understand the business of selling cars...). It'll be interesting to see how long they sit on the lot.

I hate to pay more than MSRP but this is just me

 

[TomT]

Yes, that was much my impression when we test drove one quite some time back. It had many things that would be nice to have that the Leaf did not and drove very nicely - better than the Leaf, really. If it was a little cheaper, had qualified for the HOV stickers, and had the same rebates available as the Leaf, I might well have bought it instead. At the time of ordering the Leaf, I was also a little concerned what the reliability would be as GM has a horrible history of problems with first year cars, particularly with brand new technology. As it turns out, the reliability for the Volt has been well above average according to CR so apparently that fear was unfounded...

Chevy had a test drive event at Midway Chevrolet in Phoenix yesterday afternoon, so I tooled over in my Leaf to check it out. There has been much said about the car here (and elsewhere), but I have to say that it was really a delight to drive. It is super solid, comfortable, luxurious and many things that the Leaf is not (don't rip me over that comment, I understand the irony...). Say what you will about the drive system, the tech in the car is wonderfully slick and I was amazed at all the room inside when you put the back seats down.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

i think the Volt is a fine car and it is reflected in the price. have said it a million times in several hundred different ways, but GM screwed up.

they started out with new technology with an unproven track record. they put too many amenities into it and now it priced as an upgrade. but unlike Cadillac or BMW, they have no reputation to rely on.

they should have provided a cheaper version, cut the price $7,000 and they would have a much larger market. wait until they have earned word of mouth advertising from owners, then add the perks at premium pricing.

 

[SanDust]

they started out with new technology with an unproven track record. they put too many amenities into it and now it priced as an upgrade. but unlike Cadillac or BMW, they have no reputation to rely on.

Depends on why you developed the car. The Volt was designed as a halo car, and a halo car can't be cheap and tacky. Plus most Volts go out the door with most options and, given that many are built to order, the market suggests cheap was not the way to go for that car.

You're right that to get more volume the price has to come down. On the other hand, it's not as if the Volt is priced way above the Leaf or for that matter the Focus. A base Volt is $31,645 after rebate and a SL Leaf is $29,750. The Volt wouldn't have heated seats or a backup camera but it would have OnStar and a better warranty. More or less similar.

 

[evnow]

Depends on why you developed the car. The Volt was designed as a halo car....

Bob Lutz disagrees with you ...

 

[Volusiano]

I heard that the Volt has a pretty sophisticated drive train, also translated to complicated, prone for more things to go wrong. Even though it is said that the ICE only runs to charge up the battery and the electric motor is the primary drive train, I heard that there actually is a special mode where the ICE actually can provide power through a special drive train to assist the electric motor as well (a la Prius type drive train). No wonder the cost is high with all these different components in the car. It also makes me leary about the reliability down the road when wear and tear starts to show. Sure, first year reliability may turn up to be wonderful according to CR, but that's only the 1st year. I prefer the simplicity of just a battery pack and the electric motor and nothing else to do with gas or over-engineered special hybrid transmission drive that can go wrong over the years.

 

[Stanton]

I prefer the simplicity of just a battery pack and the electric motor and nothing else to do with gas or over-engineered special hybrid transmission drive that can go wrong over the years.

I agree.

 

[SanDust]

Bob Lutz disagrees with you ...

That's funny. I don't think so. He's the one who said that the Volt was aimed at “the halo conferred on Toyota by the adulation for its Prius hybrid at a time when the Japanese maker was trying to steal what was left of Detroit’s lunch with ever more monstrous pickup trucks and SUV’s.” And of course he also said that “Because it is an important symbol. We need it. It has a chance to change our image.”

I heard that the Volt has a pretty sophisticated drive train, also translated to complicated, prone for more things to go wrong.

Yes, that's exactly why the planetary gearset on the Prius has proved so unreliable. Wait, the Prius has turned out to be exceptionally reliable. In reality there are many things that can go wrong with a car and 99% of them have nothing to do with the drive train. Planetary gearsets are pretty bullet proof. Most likely it will outlast the battery several times over.

The other thing to keep in mind is that the Volt has far better performance and is far more efficient at higher speeds than the Leaf, and that this is due to the drive train. It's not over-engineered if it delivers, which is why the SAE found the Volt to be the best engineered car of the year. It's spectacular engineering.

 

[SteveInSeattle]

The Prius is also very complicated but very reliable.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

they started out with new technology with an unproven track record. they put too many amenities into it and now it priced as an upgrade. but unlike Cadillac or BMW, they have no reputation to rely on.

Depends on why you developed the car. The Volt was designed as a halo car, and a halo car can't be cheap and tacky.

i fully agree with all that. and there is a right way, better way, not so good way and flat out wrong way to get what you want.

i am not saying GM did it wrong. i am only saying they could have done it better...MUCH better

 

[cwerdna]

I heard that the Volt has a pretty sophisticated drive train, also translated to complicated, prone for more things to go wrong.

Yes, that's exactly why the planetary gearset on the Prius has proved so unreliable. Wait, the Prius has turned out to be exceptionally reliable. In reality there are many things that can go wrong with a car and 99% of them have nothing to do with the drive train. Planetary gearsets are pretty bullet proof. Most likely it will outlast the battery several times over.

Except that on the Volt, they added 3 clutches.

 

[TomT]

The clutch mechanism they used on the Volt should be basically bullet-proof and last for hundreds of thousands of miles. It is extremely simply and robust. The Prius is by no means a simple car and has had exceptional reliability. I see no reason why the Volt necessarily has to be any different in that regard if GM engineered it correctly as it is not THAT materially different from the Prius.

Except that on the Volt, they added 3 clutches.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

3 clutches? well reliability is one issue that clutches in general have made great progress. the amount of energy wasted...not so much

 

[SanDust]

3 clutches? well reliability is one issue that clutches in general have made great progress. the amount of energy wasted...not so much

You only lose energy if it's slipping. In the Volt the clutches engage when the rotation is at zero so it's always synced up. Given that the setup makes the car 15% more efficient at higher speeds it's not that close of a call.

The fact the clutches engage when the rotation is stopped is also the reason, as TomT says, that the clutches should be fairly bulletproof.

Overall it is hard to top the simplicity of a single reduction gear, but a single reduction gear imposes too much of a performance penalty. The Volt setup is too complicated for a BEV but you need some solution to the lack of gearing.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

3 clutches? well reliability is one issue that clutches in general have made great progress. the amount of energy wasted...not so much

You only lose energy if it's slipping. In the Volt the clutches engage when the rotation is at zero

is that zero degrees or zero rotational speed? the latter would pretty much insure the clutch lasts forever.

 

[evnow]

Bob Lutz disagrees with you ...

That's funny. I don't think so. He's the one who said that the Volt was aimed at “the halo conferred on Toyota by the adulation for its Prius hybrid at a time when the Japanese maker was trying to steal what was left of Detroit’s lunch with ever more monstrous pickup trucks and SUV’s.” And of course he also said that “Because it is an important symbol. We need it. It has a chance to change our image.”

Thanks for selectively quoting Lutz - and forgetting the parts about "mass market" and "nicely below $30K".

 

[SanDust]

is that zero degrees or zero rotational speed?

I think zero rotational because the sync occurs before they're engaged. Also note that unless the car is under heavy acceleration or at higher speeds, like 70 MPH or so, the traction motor clutches to ground when the car is stationary.

Thanks for selectively quoting Lutz - and forgetting the parts about "mass market" and "nicely below $30K".

Anyone who knows anything about the Volt knows it was designed as a halo car. I don't understand why you disagree. I thought you'd like this fact because it could be interpreted as meaning the Volt is greenwashing. That plays to the GM hater fan club, doesn't it?

As far as being a mass market car, a halo car and a mass market car aren't mutually exclusive categories. A halo car that can be mass marketed is the best. This is exactly how Lutz viewed the Prius -- a mass market vehicle that cast a "green" halo over the entire line of Toyota vehicles. If you read "Car Guys Versus Beancounters" he recounts an example of this effect. A woman gassing up a gas guzzling Toyota SUV told him she wouldn't buy a GM SUV because they got such terrible MPG. When he told her they got better MPG than her Toyota vehicle she couldn't believe him. Not didn't believe him, just couldn't wrap her head around the fact that her Toyota didn't get better MPG.