Volkswagen ID.4 CUV

[jjeff]

As a reminder, for those interested or curious enough, be sure to check the map halfway down https://www.id4roadshow.com/event_home_vw to see if it's coming to your area.

My test drive appointment is in about a week. I'm just curious. Chance of me buying or leasing one of these is near 0.

Same here. My drive is on tax day. Will be fun to check it out.

Tax day or normal/former tax day? Federal income tax deadline for individuals has been extended to May 17th...

Except for states like mine that don't plan on extending the date and require a copy of our federal tax returns! Well I suppose I wouldn't have to actually mail the federal return until its new date of May 17th but if the purpose of the extension is to give me more time, it kind of negates the purpose :roll:

edit: well MN declared the new date for our state taxes now, makes sense but I already started this weekend and hopefully will be done next weekend.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

As a reminder, for those interested or curious enough, be sure to check the map halfway down https://www.id4roadshow.com/event_home_vw to see if it's coming to your area.

My test drive appointment is in about a week. I'm just curious. Chance of me buying or leasing one of these is near 0.

Same here. My drive is on tax day. Will be fun to check it out.

Tax day or normal/former tax day? Federal income tax deadline for individuals has been extended to May 17th...

Well to me, only one day of the year earns the name. If we are talking when I file, well I would called it Feb 2nd :lol:

 

[Astros]

We are very likely going to trade in our Leaf for the ID.4 next month. We were also seriously considering the base trim of the Mustang Mach-e, but after two visits to Ford dealers in the Seattle area my wife told me that she never wants to have to deal with those people again .. so that's off the table. We also couldn't find any dealer who would be willing to drop the price ~$400 to bring the model we wanted to order below the price threshold to qualify for the state EV sales tax exemption, which effectively increases the price relative to the ID.4 by $2000.

From our perspective, the reasons for switching to the ID.4 are:

• Roomier passenger cabin
• Larger cargo area in the trunk
• Longer range
• Much faster and *more reliable* charging
• CCS vs Chademo (Chademo is currently more conveniently located for us, but the new higher-power stations are mostly CCS, and I expect Chademo to disappear in the next ~10 years)
• Rear air vents
• Beautiful panoramic sunroof

Our reasons to not switch are:

• Overall higher cost (everything considered, ~$11k over the next eight years)
• We are familiar with the Leaf controls, and like them
• NO PHYSICAL BUTTONS in the ID.4.
• The charge port is located on the rear passenger side. This is going to make charging at home a little more annoying.
• Many Chademo stations are located in the centers of small towns (Castle Rock, McMinnville, etc..) where we can wander between bookstores and cafes while we charge (except not now, because of covid), while CCS stations are mostly in enormous parking lots of big box stores.
• Worried that that sunroof might break or leak.
• The ID.4 has artificial creep, and currently no way to turn it off. It can be disabled on European models, though, and I was told it would be added as an OTA update this summer.

 

[Astros]

That said, if anyone here knows someone in the Seattle area who would like to buy a Leaf SL+ that's in great shape in the next ~month, let me know. The car appears to have below average degradation, and has no issues. We are planning to trade it in otherwise.

 

[jjeff]

We also couldn't find any dealer who would be willing to drop the price ~$400 to bring the model we wanted to order below the price threshold to qualify for the state EV sales tax exemption, which effectively increases the price relative to the ID.4 by $2000.

Is this still true? I wonder if there'd be a way they would lower the price $400 and then tack on some dealer option and because it wouldn't be on the base price of the vehicle it might work? otherwise, that $400 costing you $2k would be a bitter pill to swallow

 

[Astros]

We also couldn't find any dealer who would be willing to drop the price ~$400 to bring the model we wanted to order below the price threshold to qualify for the state EV sales tax exemption, which effectively increases the price relative to the ID.4 by $2000.

Is this still true? I wonder if there'd be a way they would lower the price $400 and then tack on some dealer option and because it wouldn't be on the base price of the vehicle it might work? otherwise, that $400 costing you $2k would be a bitter pill to swallow

Yes, that is the sort of horse trading I was expecting when I brought up the price limit to qualify for the exemption. The answer I got from multiple Ford dealers was some variation of emailing me a google search result for the tax exemption rules (thanks, I already know all of that) or telling me to "deal with it". One even lured us in telling us that they would be willing to sell us one at a $2000 discount, but once we got there that turned out to be a discount of $2000 off their $9000 markup. NO THANK YOU.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

We are very likely going to trade in our Leaf for the ID.4 next month. We were also seriously considering the base trim of the Mustang Mach-e, but after two visits to Ford dealers in the Seattle area my wife told me that she never wants to have to deal with those people again .. so that's off the table. We also couldn't find any dealer who would be willing to drop the price ~$400 to bring the model we wanted to order below the price threshold to qualify for the state EV sales tax exemption, which effectively increases the price relative to the ID.4 by $2000.

From our perspective, the reasons for switching to the ID.4 are:

• Roomier passenger cabin
• Larger cargo area in the trunk
• Longer range
• Much faster and *more reliable* charging
• CCS vs Chademo (Chademo is currently more conveniently located for us, but the new higher-power stations are mostly CCS, and I expect Chademo to disappear in the next ~10 years)
• Rear air vents
• Beautiful panoramic sunroof

Our reasons to not switch are:

• Overall higher cost (everything considered, ~$11k over the next eight years)
• We are familiar with the Leaf controls, and like them
• NO PHYSICAL BUTTONS in the ID.4.
• The charge port is located on the rear passenger side. This is going to make charging at home a little more annoying.
• Many Chademo stations are located in the centers of small towns (Castle Rock, McMinnville, etc..) where we can wander between bookstores and cafes while we charge (except not now, because of covid), while CCS stations are mostly in enormous parking lots of big box stores.
• Worried that that sunroof might break or leak.
• The ID.4 has artificial creep, and currently no way to turn it off. It can be disabled on European models, though, and I was told it would be added as an OTA update this summer.

So no Ariya? I am waffling between the two. I have to see them in person. I no longer trust the media to provide a reasonably balanced perspective as they have gotten it "off" lately.

 

[danrjones]

We are very likely going to trade in our Leaf for the ID.4 next month. We were also seriously considering the base trim of the Mustang Mach-e, but after two visits to Ford dealers in the Seattle area my wife told me that she never wants to have to deal with those people again .. so that's off the table. We also couldn't find any dealer who would be willing to drop the price ~$400 to bring the model we wanted to order below the price threshold to qualify for the state EV sales tax exemption, which effectively increases the price relative to the ID.4 by $2000.

From our perspective, the reasons for switching to the ID.4 are:

• Roomier passenger cabin
• Larger cargo area in the trunk
• Longer range
• Much faster and *more reliable* charging
• CCS vs Chademo (Chademo is currently more conveniently located for us, but the new higher-power stations are mostly CCS, and I expect Chademo to disappear in the next ~10 years)
• Rear air vents
• Beautiful panoramic sunroof

Our reasons to not switch are:

• Overall higher cost (everything considered, ~$11k over the next eight years)
• We are familiar with the Leaf controls, and like them
• NO PHYSICAL BUTTONS in the ID.4.
• The charge port is located on the rear passenger side. This is going to make charging at home a little more annoying.
• Many Chademo stations are located in the centers of small towns (Castle Rock, McMinnville, etc..) where we can wander between bookstores and cafes while we charge (except not now, because of covid), while CCS stations are mostly in enormous parking lots of big box stores.
• Worried that that sunroof might break or leak.
• The ID.4 has artificial creep, and currently no way to turn it off. It can be disabled on European models, though, and I was told it would be added as an OTA update this summer.

Not sure it matters to you, but I think the ID4 also is missing a heat pump.
For me and where I live that's a "nice to have" but not a requirement. I think the MachE also went that route.

Just FYI

 

[salyavin]

I like a heat pump thanks for pointing that out. Ariya looks interesting to me, looks like a lack of physical buttons though if I understood correctly.

 

[Astros]

The Ariya is not in my consideration because I expect it to be quite a bit more expensive than the ID.4. All we know is that it will start around $40k, but then it is offered with short- and long-range battery packs and the usual S, SV, SL trims. If the Leaf is a guide, then I'd expect the price difference between the small battery S trim and the large battery SV with a tech package (for ProPilot) will be around $15k, putting the car I would want well over $50k and out of my budget.

I don't care very much about the heat pump. Our Leaf is pretty cheap to drive, and what matters most is range in the warmer months when the heat pump wouldn't help. With my previous Leaf it mattered a lot, because the range was short enough that we worried about range, but with the ID.4 or Ariya's long range it would just be about saving money commuting in winter, and it would take a lot of driving to make up for the added cost.

 

[danrjones]

The Ariya is not in my consideration because I expect it to be quite a bit more expensive than the ID.4. All we know is that it will start around $40k, but then it is offered with short- and long-range battery packs and the usual S, SV, SL trims. If the Leaf is a guide, then I'd expect the price difference between the small battery S trim and the large battery SV with a tech package (for ProPilot) will be around $15k, putting the car I would want well over $50k and out of my budget.

I don't care very much about the heat pump. Our Leaf is pretty cheap to drive, and what matters most is range in the warmer months when the heat pump wouldn't help. With my previous Leaf it mattered a lot, because the range was short enough that we worried about range, but with the ID.4 or Ariya's long range it would just be about saving money commuting in winter, and it would take a lot of driving to make up for the added cost.

Concur, which is why its a "nice to have" on my next EV but not a requirement. Also agree with your cost analysis on the Ariya, which is one reason I'm intrigued to see the Audi Etron Q4. Being that the underpinning is basically the same as the ID4, it should be one battery size. If the rumors are true, the Q4 could start at 45k with the same battery size as the ID4. In theory there will be three trim levels, but unlike the Ariya, you will get the largest battery to start with. So you could be looking at a 45k 250 mile Etron Q4 versus a quite a bit more expensive Ariya, which is still branded as a Nissan. And honestly if I am looking at the Ariya, I'd look first at the Hyundai Ioniq 5. Can't be that 800v charging speed. Price TBD.

 

[salyavin]

You two make good sense. A lot of us chose the LEAF due to price. Nissan has positioned themselves for years as a "bargain brand" if a similarly specced Audi can be had for the same or less Nissan will have a problem.

 

[Astros]

Concur, which is why its a "nice to have" on my next EV but not a requirement. Also agree with your cost analysis on the Ariya, which is one reason I'm intrigued to see the Audi Etron Q4. Being that the underpinning is basically the same as the ID4, it should be one battery size. If the rumors are true, the Q4 could start at 45k with the same battery size as the ID4.

The Q4 looks pretty good! When I had looked into it before, the only info I could find stated that it would be strictly a four-seater, which put it out of consideration for me. It looks like new information has come out, and there will be seating for five. Maybe that will even put pressure on Nissan to lower the price of the Ariya, I don't think it would look good for it to be more expensive than a comparable Audi.

 

[danrjones]

It is interesting to compare. Look at the entry level costs below, and all but the Bolts qualify for the 7500 tax credit.

EV / Range / Price

ID4 / 250 / 41k
Bolt / 259 / 32k
Bolt EUV / 250 / 34k
Ariya SR / ??? / 40k?
Ariya LR / 300? / ???
Etron Q4 / 250? / 45k?
Ioniq 5 / ??? / 45k

Pulled these numbers from Car and Driver.
This just scratches the surface of features, since charging time and other things also matter.
But one thing that seems obvious is that many of these will slot in around 45k.
But if Car and driver is correct and the Ariya Short Range starts at 40k, that makes me think the long range would be at least 48k starting?

The big disparity here is the two refreshed Bolts, though they don't (currently) qualify for the tax credit. If they do get a 7k tax credit, they are the new "Bargin" EV.

In a few tests I've watched on YouTube the ID4 managed about 230 miles of true freeway range, so I also wonder if VW sandbagged on the EPA number just a little - certainly they didn't use the 5 cycle test Tesla does, which seems to over estimate range.

I left off the MachE because its quite a bit more expensive, same with a few others like Polestar and Volvo. One could add in the current Hyundai and Kia though. Anyway, feel free to add to it or tear it apart.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

It is interesting to compare. Look at the entry level costs below, and all but the Bolts qualify for the 7500 tax credit.

EV / Range / Price

ID4 / 250 / 41k
Bolt / 259 / 32k
Bolt EUV / 250 / 34k
Ariya SR / ??? / 40k?
Ariya LR / 300? / ???
Etron Q4 / 250? / 45k?
Ioniq 5 / ??? / 45k

Pulled these numbers from Car and Driver.
This just scratches the surface of features, since charging time and other things also matter.
But one thing that seems obvious is that many of these will slot in around 45k.
But if Car and driver is correct and the Ariya Short Range starts at 40k, that makes me think the long range would be at least 48k starting?

The big disparity here is the two refreshed Bolts, though they don't (currently) qualify for the tax credit. If they do get a 7k tax credit, they are the new "Bargin" EV.

In a few tests I've watched on YouTube the ID4 managed about 230 miles of true freeway range, so I also wonder if VW sandbagged on the EPA number just a little - certainly they didn't use the 5 cycle test Tesla does, which seems to over estimate range.

I left off the MachE because its quite a bit more expensive, same with a few others like Polestar and Volvo. One could add in the current Hyundai and Kia though. Anyway, feel free to add to it or tear it apart.

I think your prices are way off and the top of the line Ariya will come in UNDER $45k as in WAY under. My guess? $41,995

 

[danrjones]

I think your prices are way off and the top of the line Ariya will come in UNDER $45k as in WAY under. My guess? $41,995

Not my prices, I just took them directly from Car and Driver, so those were their guesses. But I certainly hope you are correct.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

I think your prices are way off and the top of the line Ariya will come in UNDER $45k as in WAY under. My guess? $41,995

Not my prices, I just took them directly from Car and Driver, so those were their guesses. But I certainly hope you are correct.

I do need to clarify that I am talking selling price since my wallet doesn't care about anything else so mid 30's after feds minus any state or local incentives. The reality is the Ariya, ID 4, etc are all too close to have any kind of sales advantage so they will all go for similar costs.

 

[SageBrush]

Robert Llewellyn posted a nice, positive review of the car. Although he did not try to emphasize the numbers, he did say that his highway consumption on a cold drizzly day in the UK at ~ 68 mph was 300 Wh/mile and his overall consumption for the ~ day he used the car was 400 Wh/mile. Starting from the known 77 kWh usable capacity when the battery is new, that works out to 256 miles maximum range for his highway driving and 192 miles maximum range for his overall day of driving.

Beware, folks. The WLTP drive cycle is a benign weather test and the ID.4 took a pretty severe hit in his hands in not severe winter conditions.

Robert also noticed DCFC was ~ 1/3 his hoped for 125 kW. He ascribed it to a not low SoC but I'm more inclined to guess that his battery was too cool to take a higher charge. Until manufacturers implement a pre-conditioning routine their winter FC is going to often be markedly inferior to Tesla.

--
Fair review I think, but Robert soft-pedaled the winter achilles heel of this and every EV not named Tesla

https://youtu.be/UmyHgYH-DUk

 

[danrjones]

I think your prices are way off and the top of the line Ariya will come in UNDER $45k as in WAY under. My guess? $41,995

Not my prices, I just took them directly from Car and Driver, so those were their guesses. But I certainly hope you are correct.

I do need to clarify that I am talking selling price since my wallet doesn't care about anything else so mid 30's after feds minus any state or local incentives. The reality is the Ariya, ID 4, etc are all too close to have any kind of sales advantage so they will all go for similar costs.

Totally understand. And actually a different car and driver article (or maybe they updated it?) now shows Ariya expected to start at 40k for the small battery and 45k for the large, so with a Fed tax credit, it would be 32.5k and 37.5k. not too bad. But that's only their guess and no info on packages or options. and it does make one wonder who would then buy the Leaf + which currently slots in and nearly the same price. would you take a Leaf SL + or a Ariya entry level model for the same price? Maybe I'm missing something but to me, that's a very easy choice. Thermally regulated battery pack!

 

[WetEV]

Beware, folks.

Classic FUD.